Alice

Got any interesting thoughts on a set of lyrics? Any that don't involve the word "indeed"? Find yourself struggling to decipher all those obtuse references Von makes? Read "1959 And All That" and still no clearer? Nope, us neither. Postcards found lying in a skip around the back of the Chemists can be found here... Don't say you weren't warned.
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James Blast
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he does flirt with religion (band name, singles sleeves, lyrics), kinda like how Laibach aren't fascists, uh huh, nope, no way :lol:
"And when you start to think about death, you start to think about what's after it. And then you start hoping there is a God. For me, it's a frightening thought to go nowhere".
~ Peter Steele
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[A Brief Lecture]

Thanks to Gerald Gardner and all his subsequent generations, neo-pagan religion and magical practice (of whatever variety) are inappropriately muddled. I've known devout Catholics who practice Santería and don't see it as conflicting with their religion; I know Celtic Reconstructionists who don't practice magic because it's got nothing to do with their religion, despite it being paganism. They are not of necessity related.

[End Of Lecture...]

:von: doesn't seem to ever have specifically taken on religion as such, either directly or obliquely. (IMNSHO, because it's a non-issue for him, and presumably for most of the people he's writing about.)

The Tarot, or any divinatory tool, can easily become a crutch for someone who can't take their reality straight - especially since the advent of fluffy-bunnyism, by which philosophy the result can always be interpreted to supply the positive reinforcement desired. 'Crystal' has always struck me as (another) layered metaphor: it fits with the Tarot in the sense of a gazing crystal (hence providing security in foreknowledge), and, obviously, references drugs as yet another method of altering one's reality to suit oneself. Both are comforting illusions...

c.f. Joni Mitchell: Roses Blue

Lastly: Thread necro rulz... :wink:
Who can begin conventional amiability the first thing in the morning?
It is the hour of savage instincts and natural tendencies.
--Elizabeth von Arnim
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*lights pipe*

quite so, but if you do anything incorrectly it's pointless; I don't think that's what he's driving at.

It's not something I'm into, but I won't dismiss it out of hand.

Eldritch enjoys pushing buttons, hell, consider the band's name for a start.
I think we've been in here too long. I feel unusual. I think we should go outside.
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I'm going to leave off my lecture about Gerald Gardner and his ilk until I have time to write a whole book...
James Blast wrote:he does flirt with religion (band name, singles sleeves, lyrics), kinda like how Laibach aren't fascists, uh huh, nope, no way :lol:
Nail / head interface there I think ;)

There's this interview that Don posted:
Eldritch wrote: The citizen is becoming a pawn in a game where nobody knows the rules, where everybody consequently doubts that there are rules at all, and where the vocabulary has been diminished to such an extent that nobody is even sure what the game is all about. Hence the concomitant rise of fads like astrology, spiritualism, and generic "I want to believe"-ism. I'm a humanist. I believe people should be able to sort themselves out, as does the Judeo-Christian tradition, obviously, but for rather different reasons. Even for Western-European humanists, it's helpful to know about Isaac and Abraham for any discussion of belief/hope/obligation, especially if we wish to join a discussion which has been developed over two thousand years. It's a bit tedious to have to start the discussion from scratch every time by mulling over yesterday's soap-opera with the few people who actually watched it.
In other words, Christian myth/history/symbolism is a very important part of our cultural history, whether or not you believe it.

Also notice the dig at fads like astrology, spiritualism, and generic "I want to believe"-ism ;)
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James Blast
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allow me to quote some Roy Harper lyrics

The Spirit Lives
Where once were men are now but sheep
-a fiction and far cry
From planet earth's proud animal
-who would be you and I.
Alas, our forebears drank the cup of poisoned alibi
And made excuses far and wide,
And made God in the sky.
This boogaloo's now round the world
-bad trips for everyone.
No more the man of paradise
Or the Celt of Albion.
They queue like burning moths to spread the all-time vicious lie.
You christians destroyed our tribe
-I'll fight you till I die.
And you can cut me down for what I said
But goodness lives where God is dead.
The history of religion is the history of the State
Incestuous exploiters of a catalogue of hate.
The man of peace was over-run by armies of the "Lord"
Who signed their names to any war
And sang to praise the sword.
The m*****n heads for outer space
The voices ring and swell
With aeons of self-righteousness
The senseless echoes knell
The words get much more meaningless
-even plainer to tell
That those who would pronounce this God
Are those who make this hell.
And you can cut me down for what I said
But goodness lives where God is dead.
LOVE IS THE great triumph over christianity.
She made a fool of silly priests. She mocked authority.
She filled her bed with happiness.She gripped his loins for joy
And felt ecstatic agonies and screamed the sweetest cry.
Her children are the legacy of failure to be chained
An everasting mutiny of flowers where it rained.
They rise out of oppression
They speak with one accord.
The fountains breath- the spirit lives-
The future rests assured.
And to say that God is dead presupposes that
He was at some time alive.
Ooooo what a young fool I am
"And when you start to think about death, you start to think about what's after it. And then you start hoping there is a God. For me, it's a frightening thought to go nowhere".
~ Peter Steele
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markfiend wrote:In other words, Christian myth/history/symbolism is a very important part of our cultural history, whether or not you believe it.
I seem to recall getting a very hostile reaction from some folks for suggesting precisely this ;)
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
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sultan2075 wrote:
markfiend wrote:In other words, Christian myth/history/symbolism is a very important part of our cultural history, whether or not you believe it.
I seem to recall getting a very hostile reaction from some folks for suggesting precisely this ;)
I reserve the right to contradict myself at will ;D
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sultan2075
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markfiend wrote:
sultan2075 wrote:
markfiend wrote:In other words, Christian myth/history/symbolism is a very important part of our cultural history, whether or not you believe it.
I seem to recall getting a very hostile reaction from some folks for suggesting precisely this ;)
I reserve the right to contradict myself at will ;D
Oh, I wasn't talking about you, good sir.
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
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Quiff Boy wrote: note his attitudes to animal welfare vs human welfare...
Just curious - are you referring to his well known love of cats? Or is there something else I don't know about?
...with the wind in our face and our arms open wide...
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Nicole wrote:
Quiff Boy wrote:note his attitudes to animal welfare vs human welfare...
Just curious - are you referring to his well known love of cats? Or is there something else I don't know about?
Can't find his actual words at the moment, but it's to the effect that he can't be arsed about animal rights when human rights violations are being perpetrated on the scale that they are.
Who can begin conventional amiability the first thing in the morning?
It is the hour of savage instincts and natural tendencies.
--Elizabeth von Arnim
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Being645
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As I view it, Alice is an intimidated person in a party environment
(Some time in the 70s when playing round with crystals and tarot was quite fashionable),

She's maybe at a stage of developing a personality similar to Alice in Wonderland,
or maybe never having got further than that in the sense of never having achieved
practicable means of distancing and - as a matter of consequence - of defining
and communicating anything, or of self-confidence and self-awareness.
She's kind and warm, as this is her only refuge. But maybe, she just doesn't have
the means or
liking for fast reactions.

She's filled with, and therefore thinks she needed to comply with a, say,
background-inherent system of moral values. And this is one of the few
occasions for her to experience something new or other than usual.

She's been introduced properly to the common ways of (self-)suppression and consumption,
and supporting this strategy in response to the harm it has caused her already,
(thus, surpressing her own clear perception), even where she could have taken the hint.
Instead she runs from one means to another for interpretation, advice and reassurance.

She addresses her unhappiness and despair with sedatives and you are another means
of sedation to her. She wants to escape it (by consumption and sedation) and at the same time
she wants to rule it - by subordination to this very moral system and by agreeing to its goals
and prescribed achievements, which she's focused herself on - and by trying to interpret
you according to the standards given and by means she don't really trust in, anyway.
[Well, here - and from here on, I might be well off mark, too compromised by the example of my mother]

She could look quite impressing on you, if she complies with the societal standards you
yourself might be in for, but her interest is only on your usability as a provider for her self-esteem.

There could be a chance, if she kept to her own perception of things ...
instead of interpreting everything through the filters she's adopted ...

As I said - the whole lyric reminds me of my mother and the way she abused me
and other people (to my entire disgust) - and what she tried to force me to become.
Insofar, It's quite a song of hate to me.
On the other hand, I have seen this person in her despair, and it's taken me more than
a decade to forgive her, and another to make her a mother to myself, and it will take me
some more courage to acknowledge, what I've always known and ignored she was suffering
- out of revenge, 'cause she hit me. However, I'm getting ever better, and so does she.
We've resolved a good part of our relation.

...
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Being645 wrote:As I view it, Alice is an intimidated person in a party environment
(Some time in the 70s when playing round with crystals and tarot was quite fashionable),

She's maybe at a stage of developing a personality similar to Alice in Wonderland,
or maybe never having got further than that in the sense of never having achieved
practicable means of distancing and - as a matter of consequence - of defining
and communicating anything, or of self-confidence and self-awareness.
She's kind and warm, as this is her only refuge. But maybe, she just doesn't have
the means or
liking for fast reactions.

She's filled with, and therefore thinks she needed to comply with a, say,
background-inherent system of moral values. And this is one of the few
occasions for her to experience something new or other than usual.

She's been introduced properly to the common ways of (self-)suppression and consumption,
and supporting this strategy in response to the harm it has caused her already,
(thus, surpressing her own clear perception), even where she could have taken the hint.
Instead she runs from one means to another for interpretation, advice and reassurance.

She addresses her unhappiness and despair with sedatives and you are another means
of sedation to her. She wants to escape it (by consumption and sedation) and at the same time
she wants to rule it - by subordination to this very moral system and by agreeing to its goals
and prescribed achievements, which she's focused herself on - and by trying to interpret
you according to the standards given and by means she don't really trust in, anyway.
[Well, here - and from here on, I might be well off mark, too compromised by the example of my mother]

She could look quite impressing on you, if she complies with the societal standards you
yourself might be in for, but her interest is only on your usability as a provider for her self-esteem.

There could be a chance, if she kept to her own perception of things ...
instead of interpreting everything through the filters she's adopted ...

As I said - the whole lyric reminds me of my mother and the way she abused me
and other people (to my entire disgust) - and what she tried to force me to become.
Insofar, It's quite a song of hate to me.
On the other hand, I have seen this person in her despair, and it's taken me more than
a decade to forgive her, and another to make her a mother to myself, and it will take me
some more courage to acknowledge, what I've always known and ignored she was suffering
- out of revenge, 'cause she hit me. However, I'm getting ever better, and so does she.
We've resolved a good part of our relation.

...
:notworthy: That is one deep view, I miss words to express my opinion. Thank you for sharing your most intimate feelings.
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sultan2075 wrote:
markfiend wrote:
sultan2075 wrote: I seem to recall getting a very hostile reaction from some folks for suggesting precisely this ;)
I reserve the right to contradict myself at will ;D
Oh, I wasn't talking about you, good sir.
:lol: Oh good. I do try to be consistent, but you know how it goes....
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Quiff Boy wrote: he seems a very secular person, more concerned with humanistic matters that have a direct impact on the individual and on society to be bothered about nonsense notions of godhead or the divine :roll:
Any idea what's with the cross - is he a catholic?

Image
I think we've been in here too long. I feel unusual. I think we should go outside.
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Be it a cross or a pentagram, it looks good on these collarbones. 8)
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Harvey Winston
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_emma_ wrote:Be it a cross or a pentagram, it looks good on these collarbones. 8)
:lol:

on second thoughts, oh lordy, please don't start them off in this thread too :eek:
I think we've been in here too long. I feel unusual. I think we should go outside.
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Harvey Winston wrote:
_emma_ wrote:Be it a cross or a pentagram, it looks good on these collarbones. 8)
:lol:

on second thoughts, oh lordy, please don't start them off in this thread too :eek:
of course not. :von: 's collarbones deserve their very own special thread ;D
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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What have I done. :|


:lol:
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Harvey Winston wrote:Any idea what's with the cross - is he a catholic?
Nah, just a goff. :twisted:
Trigonometry. It's a sin.
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mh wrote:
Harvey Winston wrote:Any idea what's with the cross - is he a catholic?
Nah, just a goff. :twisted:
^ yep, wot he said :lol:
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Quiff Boy wrote:
mh wrote:
Harvey Winston wrote:Any idea what's with the cross - is he a catholic?
Nah, just a goff. :twisted:
^ yep, wot he said :lol:
Everybody who wore black was wearing crosses back then - you should see mine... :wink:

Are you showing your age or what? :lol:
Who can begin conventional amiability the first thing in the morning?
It is the hour of savage instincts and natural tendencies.
--Elizabeth von Arnim
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Harvey Winston
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ah yes I forgot about that.
7anthea7 wrote:
Are you showing your age or what? :lol:
:lol: I had an iron cross thank you very much :P
I think we've been in here too long. I feel unusual. I think we should go outside.
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i had an Isis iron cross painted and crafted back then at age of 13-14 :lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh
omg so many years have past from that :roll: :eek:
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black sabbath / ozzy prince of darkness : crosses galore. though they definitely look better upside-down. :twisted:
"Well I was handsome and I was strong
And I knerw the words to every song.
'Did my singing please you?'
'No! the words you sang were wrong' "

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