The NME

[MrChris]

Okay, the NME special issue is out now, and it's filled with lots of old reviews and interviews, and some nice pictures. I costs the ludicrous price of £6.99, for what is basically equivalent to a version of Q magazine, but with NO new material to pay journalists to write. The money goes straight in 'the man's' pocket.

Also, they've concentrated on the big 'stadium bands' only. This means no to Nosferatu, yes to Joy Division?? Still, it's a funny read at times, if only to remember what a bunch of frustrated failed-authorish, bitter and pretentious tw*ts wrote for the nme. I'm enjoying it.

[allfear]

Oy You lot Leave Mr Mercer alone, if you think you can do better then YOU have a go!

[markfiend]

Oy You lot Leave Mr Mercer alone, if you think you can do better then YOU have a go!

Is that you Mick?

But seriously, I get your point. He has tried to be a champion for the "goth scene" for a long time now.

Whether the "goth scene" deserves a champion at all is a different matter

[Karst]

Oy You lot Leave Mr Mercer alone, if you think you can do better then YOU have a go!

Its not a question of doing better - it is a question of need. The Heartland series did a good job with getting the Sisters information overload set up, nicely completemented by Postcards from the Chemist and the website. No real need for anything else or some half baked attempts to warp them into that 'movement' concept.

[Francis]

the last decade plus

mainstream ... in the latter part of the Eighties

[Lowrider]

Oy You lot Leave Mr Mercer alone, if you think you can do better then YOU have a go!

He's doing a good job at cataloguing the goth scene -- if you like that sort of thing.

But he's hardly the world's greatest writer. Workmanlike just about covers it. To do Von justice, you'd need someone who could include an analysis of the lyrics, context, new wave and so on.

In a way, this isn't a criticism of Mercer because he never claims to set out to do that. But you can see why he makes Eldritch grind his teeth in frustation (a cause of teeth-grinding that at least offers an alternative to speed ) and why Von would think it's not necessary to contribute to his work.

[boudicca]

But you can see why he makes Eldritch grind his teeth in frustation (a cause of teeth-grinding that at least offers an alternative to speed )

Or just general bitterness. He wouldn't be the same without it.

I don't mind Mr. Mercer. Now maybe I'm just talking out of my arse, since I was a foetus around the time the Reptile House EP came out, but I don't think he does that bad a job of doing what he has appointed himself to do. His own preferences and opinions get in the way a bit sometimes, but he's OK. I suppose what grates a little is the self-appointment as an 'authority' - subcultures and their definitions bend to the whims of those involved in them, and their idols, not really to the opinions of a single journalist.
However, I don't have a problem with the fact that it's the g-g-g-g- you know culture that he's chronicling. People have got really daft about this. Yeah him too! People chronicle the punk movement, no-one's too bothered. Just because the g-word has been hijacked by some of the world's most dodgy people over the years doesn't necessarily mean it should never be used, even as a helpful description of some people and bands that did and do share a hell of a lot of similarities.

IMHO, Mick's biggest problem is baldness.

[allfear]

Remember, it was ZIG ZAG whom mick wrote for (And even Julianne Regan did a bit of writing for them too), that helped get the sisters exposure in the first place.

And if anyone suggesets that the Sisters ARENT a goth band, then you really need some vaseline to remove your head from Eldritches arse.

matt

[James Blast]

I prefer

[Red_Kola]

And if anyone suggesets that the Sisters ARENT a goth band, then you really need some valeline to remove your head from Eldritches arse.

matt

Arf.

Valeline, Emaline and Joline (sic). The Andrews Sisters, right???

If you really are going to hark back to the days of Zig-Zag then you will know all about the great little post-punk band, The Sisters of Mercy who were already distancing themselves from many of their peers by not performing in venues mentioning the words Bat or Cave, nor singing cartoon horror songs or indeed, ones about Bela Lugosi...

[boudicca]

I find it really odd that they (I say 'they' ) shirk the one label that they are most often given, while employing just about every other one that's out there on the very first page of their - his - website. And even inventing one for good measure (see 'industrial groove machine'). I once heard Von describe his music as "rock ambient industrial techno" ( who are you f**king kidding?) or some such nonsense, so he obviously doesn't have a problem with labelling. Or if he does, he keeps forgetting.

He's a self proclaimed 'linguist' - he should understand that the 'g-word' is just a bloody word. That the meanings of words are always subject to a little tweaking, and if he doesn't like what goth has come to mean, then he of all people could probably change it to basically mean all the things he digs. And I suspect it used to be pretty close, whether he'd admit it or not - he helped define it's meaning just by being there when goth was in it's infancy.

*sigh* I say all this like I don't want to have his children....

[CtrlAltDelete]

I find it really odd that they (I say 'they' ) shirk the one label that they are most often given, while employing just about every other one that's out there on the very first page of their - his - website. And even inventing one for good measure (see 'industrial groove machine'). I once heard Von describe his music as "rock ambient industrial techno" ( who are you **** kidding?) or some such nonsense, so he obviously doesn't have a problem with labelling. Or if he does, he keeps forgetting.

He's a self proclaimed 'linguist' - he should understand that the 'g-word' is just a bloody word. That the meanings of words are always subject to a little tweaking, and if he doesn't like what goth has come to mean, then he of all people could probably change it to basically mean all the things he digs. And I suspect it used to be pretty close, whether he'd admit it or not - he helped define it's meaning just by being there when goth was in it's infancy.

*sigh* I say all this like I don't want to have his children....

I think it comes down to trying to define what, exactly, g*** is.

Back in the way-back-when g*** wasn't such a horrible word. But in the last ten years it's been commandeered by a ridiculous looking/thinking lot of people. In that respect I can see wanting to distance yourself from the label.

However, I think Von is shirking the label not because of the associations, but because he just loves to be contrary.

[Llamatron]

I once heard Von describe his music as "rock ambient industrial techno"

If I ever heard someone describe their band as such, I'd immediately assume "goth band". Musically, the majority of the Sisters' catalogue places them squarely in the goth camp. Even the new stuff. (C'mon, tell me Summer or Crash And Burn isn't gother than f***!)

The one thing that can get me to side with Eldritch on the subject is that the Sisters have too much defiant rock attitude to quite fit in comfortably as "goth". Not enough angst and tragedy. Too balls-out rock, not mopey enough.

[Black Biscuit]

Honestly, the average goth just needs to lighten up a bit. Then they won't look so ridiculous walking around during the daytime.

Here in sunny Down Under, there is an Outback town called Cann River (named after the local river, I'd say... ) and a local music website put out an open invitation to all goths and gothic bands passing through that area to see if they could "buy a beer in Cann River while dressed like Dracula's grandmother without getting your head punched in".

Had to laugh at that one!

[Gottdammerung]

I once heard Von describe his music as "rock ambient industrial techno"

If I ever heard someone describe their band as such, I'd immediately assume "goth band". Musically, the majority of the Sisters' catalogue places them squarely in the goth camp. Even the new stuff. (C'mon, tell me Summer or Crash And Burn isn't gother than f***!)

The one thing that can get me to side with Eldritch on the subject is that the Sisters have too much defiant rock attitude to quite fit in comfortably as "goth". Not enough angst and tragedy. Too balls-out rock, not mopey enough.

I remember an interesting interview in Lime Lizard in 1992 or 93 and Eldritch put it like this..

He said that the false happiness of bands like Wet Wet Wet was far more depressing that any music the Sisters produced and that in fact he was far happier to deal with the gritty nature of reality and in fact found facing the facts more uplifting..

Not really goth is it... given the serious lack of self pity etc..

Plus I blame goths for killing loads of bands... saw Skinny Puppy play in London a couple of months ago and it was goth central... annoying given how un-gothic SP actually are/were...

(Speaketh the man who wore an orange safety jacket into the Devonshire Arms in London - the biggest goth pub in Camden basically! )

[Gottdammerung]

Honestly, the average goth just needs to lighten up a bit. Then they won't look so ridiculous walking around during the daytime.

Here in sunny Down Under, there is an Outback town called Cann River (named after the local river, I'd say... ) and a local music website put out an open invitation to all goths and gothic bands passing through that area to see if they could "buy a beer in Cann River while dressed like Dracula's grandmother without getting your head punched in".

Had to laugh at that one!

Quality!

[Black Biscuit]

As for whether the Sisters are 'goth' or not, wasn't everyone getting lumped in with that crowd at the time, like even the Waterboys? Patsy calls AE "Mr I'm not a goth", yet I recall her saying in interview during the Floodland era that the goth image genuinely meant nothing to Andy, even if it did to her. Hence his white suit? Dave Vanian may secretly want to be Elvis.

[Gottdammerung]

As for whether the Sisters are 'goth' or not, wasn't everyone getting lumped in with that crowd at the time, like even the Waterboys? Patsy calls AE "Mr I'm not a goth", yet I recall her saying in interview during the Floodland era that the goth image genuinely meant nothing to Andy, even if it did to her. Hence his white suit? Dave Vanian may secretly want to be Elvis.

The suit thing.. harking back to the Lime Lizard interview (if anyone has this IM me with a copy...), which I'm sure this was touched on..

Eldritch was talking about how people's perceptions differ around the world.. talking about the negative/positive thing.. and he happened to mention that the Japanese funeral colour was white..

Given his prediliction towards irony it kinda makes sense..

[Black Biscuit]

Some Asian country's wear white at funerals. I think it's the Koreans. Not so sure about the Japanese.

[allfear]

Eldritch just likes pissing off his fans with slagigng goth, and writing s**t songs, thats why he plays the birming academy and the kentish town forum rather than the birmingham NEC and wembley Arena, wont be long till he plays whitby.

[Gottdammerung]

Some Asian country's wear white at funerals. I think it's the Koreans. Not so sure about the Japanese.

For some reason I have a bit of a photographic memory of that quote and he def said the Japanese... shame I can't remember too much more about the interview, it was actually a really good one.. Lime Lizard magazine 1992...

I think one problem is that the 'goth' element don't sometimes seem to get the joke.. I got into the Sisters in secondary school (12 long years ago..) but the goths couldn't understand the humour... their faces when I managed to get a bootleg of the Sister's doing Abba was a scream...

It the seriousness of it all... if I want seriousness I'll listen to Laibach but as for the Sisters, I reckon there's a very serious tongue in cheek somewhere!

Especially when the main man himself admits that his favourite films are the Blues Brothers and Apocalypse Now (though it might have changed since..).. two fine examples of something totally overblown and ridiculous in the best possible way...

[MrChris]

Women wear white while in mourning in India too, I think it's quite a common thing.

[Gottdammerung]

Women wear white while in mourning in India too, I think it's quite a common thing.

Interesting... might be a Buddhist thing then, or at least it originated in the Indian region.. considering the movement of the philosophy from India through Asia to Japan... but that's a whole new kettle of fish..

[Black Biscuit]

Well, there you go then. Was the whole 80s goth thing a media beat-up by hacks trying to create a scene, and sell music rags, or was there some unifying common link between all these acts? Hard to imagine when you go from the punky energy of ASF or Sex Gang Children through to the more girly, ethereal stuff of All About Eve and the Cocteau Twins.

Angst and anger are the biggest turn-offs I ever encounter, especially from women, although I note that Buddhism has become a vogue remedy for the urban elite to deal with their angst issues.

Was there something to unify the whole goth phenomenon other than the predictable absence of colour in the dress-code? Ultimately, however, I hope that all will recognize that art and artists are, in the final analysis, logically flawed due to their fondness for speaking in metaphor and riddle when the simplest and most effective way to communicate is literally and with brevity. This could explain why it's tough for them to make a living.

If your head is too far up your own a-- you'll have a bit of trouble with what I've just said.

[Gottdammerung]