The Warners Contract

[Mr Thorburn]

i didnt know that TOL was the second best selling 12" of all time.

imagine - its christmas 1983 & your band are top of the indie charts. youre a 24 year old graduate, youve been in the music business for 3 years & have built up a good label , put out good records ( with funnies etched into the blocking grooves) & mr warner knocks on your door, offering you a record deal....

i dont recall Von ever really explaining what happened in that haitus period ( dec 83-mar 84) apart from in an old cassette i had with an american/canadian radio interview on it. the upshot was that the band had been spending a lot of time with its lawyers negotiating a deal which von described as basically a worldwide distribution deal with warners. the label ( merciful release) would continue to make the records & it would now use warners muscle to penetrate territories previously beyond the likes of red rhino.

you sign the (50 page) deal with warners, they send the band to new york for a short usa tour & a trendy photographer takes their picture in detroit ( great). you get to make your 1st proper video & body & soul nearly gets you on TOTP ( great).

but wait, what exactly is the terms of that record deal?

at this juncture, can i invite comments?

[Mr Thorburn]

-is it really just a distribution deal?

-is it a full on x singles, y albums deal, with options & advances along the way?

-do the band have a clause allowing them to get out of the contract?

-do the band have management acting for them to negotiate terms?

-do they use high street lawyers from headingley or are specialist london music lawyers retained?

-marketing & distributing product, tours of the states, videos & trendy photographers arent cheap. who is picking up the tab? if one assumes warners do, then the band are going to be unrecouped ( ie no royalty cheques) for a considerable period of time, especially as large record cos do their accounting periods 6 months in arrears.

[nodubmanshouts]

I dunno -- but the kitties under the palm trees by the pool ain't complaining

[Quiff Boy]

you say "do" a lot. one assumes you mean "did"? and "was" instead of "is"?

in which case, hindsight gives us a few answers:

"-is it really just a distribution deal?"

apparently not, otherwise they wouldnt have bitched about poor promotion and had to go on strike on the 90s.

"-is it a full on x singles, y albums deal, with options & advances along the way?"

looks that way. WEA certainly had power of veto on the material, controlled launch dates, wouldnt let him record vocals with anyone else unless they said so, etc etc

also, the whole SSV was to fulfill a contracted # of albums.

"-do the band have a clause allowing them to get out of the contract?"

would seem not, otherwise i assume they wouldnt have had to go on strike.

"-do the band have management acting for them to negotiate terms?"

used to be managed by boyd (steemson?!?) from the reptile house but IIRC they sacked him for incompetence and eldritch managed them thereafter.

"-do the band have management acting for them to negotiate terms?"

again, i would assume it is or was eldritch himself. i cant see him willing to relinquish that sort of control.

"-do they use high street lawyers from headingley or are specialist london music lawyers retained?"

knowing the way the old leeds scene works i would suggest the former

"-marketing & distributing product, tours of the states, videos & trendy photographers arent cheap. who is picking up the tab?"

WEA

"if one assumes warners do, then the band are going to be unrecouped ( ie no royalty cheques) for a considerable period of time, especially as large record cos do their accounting periods 6 months in arrears."

see "a slight case of overbombing" also, i seem to remember reading something about the recording of vision thing that mentions the whole financial, royalty, fees, etc side of it. could have been on tony james' "diary" on the sputnik website?

[nodubmanshouts]

From what I understand, a 'tour thing' is seperate from a 'record thang'. The record company will usually invest in the tour, since the tour sells records, but that's not necessarily so. I seemd to recal Von bitching about the Record Company's lack of tour support in the past. That tour support can be financial, or in the form of advertising.

Same goes for videos and other such stuff -- if the band wants to spend $2M on a promo, that's fine, but the record company may only commit $1M.

With bands like The Sisters, it seems that the initial sales of a record are enough to cover the advance, and ongoing band/crew salaries, but probably not much more. Hence tours, videos, back catalogue releases help make the artist money.

That's why Von probably didn't make much money until "Slight Case Of Overbombing". And as for making money off singles, forgeddit

However, he probably has a somehwat steady stream from publishing and record royalities.

That's not a great way to live, so Von is trying to get a big upfront advance this time.... and no takers

I'm sure though that he's quite comfortably off.... palm tree kitties, palm tree kitties...

[MrChris]

I only have a couple of thoughts here.

One is that, like Quiffy, I recall that there was a 'special' deal around the time of Vision Thing regarding recording costs. WEA didn't want to spend vast sums of money on hiring PUK studios while Von recorded his vocals 138 times and generally shilly-shallied. So Von agreed that if the studio time went over x (3 months? 6?), the fees would come out of artist royalties. In retrospect, although Von no doubt thought he was being very clever, this was an EXTREMELY BAD DEAL for Von.

I believe the records have all recouped, but only relatively recently. Does this mean that Von etc will not have made any substantial royalties until then? Has he or will he ever make any money from Vision Thing, given the special deal? I don't know.

Lastly, AFAIC the idea that Temple is the second highest selling 12" of all time is a liberal interpretation of the facts. It WAS kept off the top of the indie charts in 1983 by Blue Monday, which IS the highest selling 12" of all time, but unless we're playing by conker rules, that doesn't make TOL the second highest seller by a long stretch. Personally, I'd be surprised if it's in the top 100 of all time, but I'd be interested to hear any hard facts either way.

[CellThree]

I remember reading somewhere that the SSV debacle ended with Von giving Warners the album and "letting them keep" the 75,000 pounds they owed him?

I think this money was the royalty payments.

So the question now is who owns the Sisters back catalogue? Is it all owned by WEA/Warners or has Von managed to keep hold of them?

[Black Shuck]

no way is TOL the 2nd best selling 12" of all time.

I never seem to meet people who've even HEARD of the Sisters; I find it hard to believe that loads and loads of people rushed out in the early 80s to buy one of their records.

there must have been lots of 12" records by 80s megastars such as Michael Jackson, Madonna, Shakin Stevens ( ) etc. that sold more copies than one mouldy old, obscure Sisters release.

It might be in the top ten INDEPENDANT 12 inchers of all time, alongside Bela Lugosi's Dead and Blue Monday. A very rough guess (and I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to things like record sales) Is that TOL has sold around 100,000 copies over the space of about ten years (ie from it's release in '83 up until SGWBM made the 12'' redundant).

[Gottdammerung]

no way is TOL the 2nd best selling 12" of all time.

I never seem to meet people who've even HEARD of the Sisters; I find it hard to believe that loads and loads of people rushed out in the early 80s to buy one of their records.

there must have been lots of 12" records by 80s megastars such as Michael Jackson, Madonna, Shakin Stevens ( ) etc. that sold more copies than one mouldy old, obscure Sisters release.

It might be in the top ten INDEPENDANT 12 inchers of all time, alongside Bela Lugosi's Dead and Blue Monday. A very rough guess (and I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to things like record sales) Is that TOL has sold around 100,000 copies over the space of about ten years (ie from it's release in '83 up until SGWBM made the 12'' redundant).

Okay... I had made mention to it being an INDIE release, which was according to the old Heartland Fanzine.. So TOM was the 2nd best selling Indie 12"...


(remember peeps I work from memory a lot of the time.. given that my possessions are between Scotland and London and I can't exactly jump between the two places! )

[Gottdammerung]

no way is TOL the 2nd best selling 12" of all time.

I never seem to meet people who've even HEARD of the Sisters; I find it hard to believe that loads and loads of people rushed out in the early 80s to buy one of their records.

there must have been lots of 12" records by 80s megastars such as Michael Jackson, Madonna, Shakin Stevens ( ) etc. that sold more copies than one mouldy old, obscure Sisters release.

It might be in the top ten INDEPENDANT 12 inchers of all time, alongside Bela Lugosi's Dead and Blue Monday. A very rough guess (and I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to things like record sales) Is that TOL has sold around 100,000 copies over the space of about ten years (ie from it's release in '83 up until SGWBM made the 12'' redundant).

Okay... I had made mention to it being an INDIE release, which was according to the old Heartland Fanzine.. So TOM was the 2nd best selling Indie 12"..., which is a MAJOR difference, I know!


(remember peeps I work from memory a lot of the time.. given that my possessions are between Scotland and London and I can't exactly jump between the two places! )

[nodubmanshouts]

So the question now is who owns the Sisters back catalogue? Is it all owned by WEA/Warners or has Von managed to keep hold of them?

Not sure, there seem to have been a number of publishers over the years.

I would hazard that the recordings belong to WEA from Body And Soul onwards, and are licensed to WEA pre-FALAA (for the compilations). Maybe he sold them.... duuno

Either way, I'm sure he gets a small but steady stream of cash from royalities... but most of his accumulated wealth would probably come from tours, T-shirts and such like.

[Mr Thorburn]

hmm,

so youve got youre own label, it releases several great records, the artwork is excellent, youre funny, give great press & men dance when you play live. in short, youre in control.

what rationale drives you to give it away, especially so early on? what value does a major add?

good managers/lawyers can tell you what happens when you sign 50 page contracts with large corporations.


here goes;

-your follow up to dancefloor filler TOL is body & soul. the £10k video paid for by wea aint great.

-walk away has a flexi disk with the 12" to move more units & get you into the top 40. great, only theres a clause in the contract that says promo sales like this dont attract any royalties for the artist & so youre basically giving them away.( coloured vinyl trick)

-you want the album to have a gatefold sleeve & a glossy colour a4 in it. no problem, well add it to the bill

-the bloke at the record company says
1. im not sure you can use the word "amph***mine" on the cover, its a bit racy &
2. the vocals on marian - can you turn them up a bit, i cant hear what youre saying.
3. please dont dedicate FALAA to your cat.

-is NTTC really the best single to promote the album?

-you have to turn up at record company meetings & record personal video messages to the board - 'heres our next single - black planet'. ok, but you would prefer to be doing other, more rock & roll things.

within the space of 2 years, youve lost control & are spending time & energy dealing with record company types. by the way, the advance for crisp & sweety money has run out & where are the petrodollars?

mr mori, please start a poll;

"merciful release is an independent record label. were not interested in turning the gold to chrome. our next release is scheduled for release in may 1984 is ********* "

[lazarus corporation]

I recall Von saying in an interview that by signing to WEA he could finally sign-off the dole (which he'd been claiming up until then).

I presume that signing to a major could help finance things such as touring abroad (especially the States), as well as everything you mentioned.

With hindsight it's easy to say it was a bad move because the relationship with WEA turned distinctly sour, but it was a business deal that produced three damn fine studio albums and associated singles and regular tours for us lot to enjoy. Now contrast that with the current situation.

[nodubmanshouts]

regular tours for us lot to enjoy

I wouldn't quite say that remember, they didn't step foot on stage until after the last studio album was in the shops


I think the deal the Sisters had probably wasn't that bad. Thing is, Vision Thing bombed and after that the record company lost interest in promoting the band. 2 compilations were knocked out to help fufill the contract, consumer demand and pay the bill. But WEA didn't have much confidence in new material.

Hence they got moved on East West and we all know where things go from ther

[Hojyuu-obi]

There's a bit here in the Gary Marx interview I uploaded some time ago (half way the page) where Gary is asked about the signing to a major (won't answer too many questions, still worth a read imho) ...

[the-happening]

In answer to the above questions WEA now own all the released SISTERS releases, by releasing SGWBM WEA bought the SISTERS back catalogue Von had to pay off Craig and Ben Gunn which must have been painful as without their signature it was a no go!! there were rumours than Ben Gunn got £10K for his signature. The PUK studio deal for VT was that Von wanted to use the best studio in Europe (at the time) but WEA were not keen due to costs, so Von negotiated that if the album took longer than X months to record he would tour to promote it, hence he started touring as the recording took way longer than hoped! I do think that when the SISTERS signed to WEA they were a good record company but like any business if the people change then so can the relationship between employer and employee! Von forfeited £75K in royalties to get out of the contract this figure i believe was discovered after his own accountant visited the record label and carried out an independent audit! So i assume that he didn't know he had this money so didn't miss what he hadn't got giving him a cheap contract buy out.

[nodubmanshouts]

Ben Gunn got £10K for his signature

Just for his signature, or for the signature + the sale of songs?

If tis both, I think he gotta raw deal

[Black Shuck]

Ben Gunn got £10K for his signature

Just for his signature, or for the signature + the sale of songs?

If tis both, I think he gotta raw deal

it wasn't a raw deal, if you believe the popular rumour that he never played on any Sisters record...

[nodubmanshouts]

if you believe the popular rumour that he never played on any Sisters record...

Well if that were true, Von would not have needed his signature in the first place

If it was for publishing rights to the one or two riffs Gunny Boy contributed to the songs, then it was probably not too bad of a deal for him.

[MrChris]

I think it was a very good deal for Gunn. Let's face it, apart from SGWBM, those songs are never going to earn anyone else another penny. Gunn didn't write them so won't benefit from cover versions; if Von ever re-recorded any (unlikely) then Gunn wouldn't have to give him any money either; and let's face it even if the originals were rereleased AGAIN in some swanky new format (highly unlikely), even then Gunn would earn peanuts. If he got a car or a conservatory out of it, the boy done good.

[nodubmanshouts]

I hear what ya saying... maybe its not so bad....

but if you compare it to how much Von made by simply just giving WEA the tapes, its not that much.

I wonder if he invested the money in his new band

[Mr Thorburn]

i think you can find out who gets the mechanical royalties & in what percentage from the mcps ( www.mcps.co.uk)

eg walk away - 50% hussey, 50% eldritch?
poison door - 100% marx
on the wire 100% eldritch

i assume someone out there knows the details of the publishing agreements -1st rca music ltd/candelmaesse ltd & later emi music publishing ltd/eldritch boulevard ltd

[Electrochrome]

Wasn't there a rumor about Eldo talking to Metropolis Records a while back? Is that not big enough for him? Does he even want a major now? Have major labels even heard of TSOM?

Is Von's name mud in the industry? (Entirely likely).

How can so many bands out there release CDs and tour, no matter how broke or fringe they are? Does Von really think anyone outside of Poland and Germany are going to mob record stores to buy new Sisters material?

His best bet would be to get some decent, monetary backing, and just launch a long ad campaign announcing a return...I'm talking about mysterious posters slapped on construction sites...mysterious stickers appearing on lampposts...a sudden re-release of FALAA, or B-Sides, simply anything to indicate the TSOM MIGHT have something left to say, before Eldo totally whithers away, as he already looks the worse for wear at age 45.

They need a dark, menaching new song for the radio, and maybe a scary, smoke-filled video (totally obscuring the band) to get some interest from the drooling music consumers that dominate the couches of the USA (can't speak for the UK).

Work with me here, people. Anyone have $1,000,000 to spare? How about $3,000,000? Isn't there a rich, crazy old aunt somewhere that can fund the final tour of the Sisters to coincide with an actual record?

[Mr Thorburn]

i think theres a crazy old uncle out there called philip russell diplock, hes from planet ursa alpha & lives on an island that has no roads.

la vermandaye.