Who should you vote for?

[boudicca]

AMEN to Blast.

Oh, what the f**k, "No-one represents me..."

Well DUH, represent yourself and f**king stand for election, OR stop whining and choose the party that's closest to you.

It's not f**king rocket science, people!

What pisses me off most of all is, the real reason for apathy is not among the ones that are given all the time as excuses - it's called resting on your f**king laurels 'cos, in all honesty, compared to 90% of people on this earth, you're pretty comfortable.

*rant over*

*more coffee*

[deadagain]

Okay so its abit late now, but...

My result...

Labour -3
Tory -49
Liberal +123
UKIP -14
Green +115

Didn't realise i was such a radical. Does this mean the thought police will be coming for me?! eek.

[Dark]

We seriously need a Goth Party.

[markfiend]

We seriously need a Goth Party.

Everyone sitting around with the lights switched off?

[hallucienate]

We seriously need a Goth Party.

Everyone sitting around with the lights switched off?

complaining that they aren't actually members of the goth party, it's just the way they are.

[Quiff Boy]

i went to one of those once. *shudder*

found a strange packet of pinky white battery acid under a table...

my jaw ached for a week afterwards and i swear i could pick up radio 4 on my fillings

(gloria hunniford's voice coming out of your mouth at 8 in the morning is not what you need!!)

[markfiend]

(gloria hunniford's voice coming out of your mouth at 8 in the morning is not what you need!!)

Especially when you've had no sleep...

*Edit: Although I imagine Gloria herself is quite used to it

*Edit again: Her voice coming out of her mouth I mean. In no way did I intend to suggest that Ms Hunniford partakes of recreational chemicals

[Obviousman]

Oh, what the f**k, "No-one represents me..."

Well DUH, represent yourself and f**king stand for election, OR stop whining and choose the party that's closest to you.

It's not f**king rocket science, people!

You should vote for the party closest to you indeed... Here in Belgium, a guy founded a party some years ago (it actually got into parliament - that's possibile here - not that I liked it but anyhow...) and even he said that he could not find all of his opinions expressed by this party, election is about compromises...

Anyway, just let us all start our own tiny kingdoms

[andymackem]

Well DUH, represent yourself and f**king stand for election, OR stop whining and choose the party that's closest to you.

It's not f**king rocket science, people!

What pisses me off most of all is, the real reason for apathy is not among the ones that are given all the time as excuses - it's called resting on your f**king laurels 'cos, in all honesty, compared to 90% of people on this earth, you're pretty comfortable.

I'd break that run of clauses into a couple of sentences if I were you

But there is a sense that whoever we vote for, the government gets in. And it is very hard to see much point in voting in rock-solid seats (for all parties) which dominate the election.

There were 88 seats out of 646 that Labour could plausibly have lost, and a scattering of other marginals. I spent the morning reviewing the polls in the various seats I've lived: only Putney was interesting. Selby was close-ish but Sunderland Sth, City of Durham, City of York, Glasgow NW, Tiverton & Honiton, Feltham & Heston and Southend East are all rotten boroughs. There's not much incentive to vote when you know the majority party will win even if they have put up a Labrador as candidate.

Without changing the system you're not going to improve that. However, changing the system means meaningful representation for a load of minority parties. If you want your individual vote to count, you have to accept that individual votes for BNP, Nat Front, UKIP etc will count as well.

[boudicca]

Well DUH, represent yourself and f**king stand for election, OR stop whining and choose the party that's closest to you.

It's not f**king rocket science, people!

What pisses me off most of all is, the real reason for apathy is not among the ones that are given all the time as excuses - it's called resting on your f**king laurels 'cos, in all honesty, compared to 90% of people on this earth, you're pretty comfortable.

I'd break that run of clauses into a couple of sentences if I were you

Coffee+anxiousness+general maniac status = bad grammar.

I understand the problems of the voting system. I support PR, and not simply as a part of the classic Lib Dem package, I might add!

But even that has its faults. All systems are flawed.

I just don't believe you have any right to complain about the state of your country when you won't even make an effort.

[markfiend]

Electoral democracy as a whole is flawed. Its one major advantage is that it's a lot less bad than any other political system yet discovered/invented.

[Francis]

We seriously need a Goth Party.

I'm told that the City of York had a candidate for the Dungeons, Death and Taxes Party yesterday.

[andymackem]

A radical thought: this election had the second lowest turn-out of modern times (61% or so).

A number of people are complaining of disengagement, either due to the 'rotten borough' problem of safe seats or because they don't like the parties.

How low would turn-out need to get before it became clear that the political system was malfunctioning?

By voting out of duty at the moment, are we not prolonging a flawed system?

[Scardwel]

I'm told that the City of York had a candidate for the Dungeons, Death and Taxes Party yesterday.

Indeed. With such colourful policies as invading France, re-colonising America and lowering the school leaving age to nine. They got 93 votes!

[andymackem]

Electoral democracy as a whole is flawed. Its one major advantage is that it's a lot less bad than any other political system yet discovered/invented.

Not true. Putting me in charge would be an improvement. I promise.

Seriously, though, I can think of several people whose judgement I would trust ahead of most politicians - and certainly ahead of the electorate as a whole.

None of them on here, mind

[boudicca]

By voting out of duty at the moment, are we not prolonging a flawed system?

So lets say we all stopped voting, even the most politically-minded folk.
(Really, this is so hypothetical it's silly, but...)

The current system dies. What is it to be replaced with?
Utopia itself?

[rian]

Is to late to vote now, isn't it?



Bla bla Blair.....

[andymackem]

By voting out of duty at the moment, are we not prolonging a flawed system?

So lets say we all stopped voting, even the most politically-minded folk.
(Really, this is so hypothetical it's silly, but...)

The current system dies. What is it to be replaced with?
Utopia itself?

The current 'electoral' system (I should have specified that) is shocked into an overdue overhaul?

We've already agreed that PR would be a way forward ....

Alternatively we could have enforced voting. Australia takes people to court if they don't vote, including ex-pats living over here. There's a queue at Australia House on election day.

And why is it silly? Electoral turn-outs have been in steady decline throughout my lifetime (and thus presumably yours). Outside of a general election council wards have been decided on turn-outs as lows as 14% (South Tyneside in about 1999, but that's off the top of my head).

Logic suggests that, without some sort of action, eventually turn-outs will drop to the point where an election result has no kind of validity and bestows no mandate unless something is done.

[Obviousman]

Alternatively we could have enforced voting. Australia takes people to court if they don't vote, including ex-pats living over here. There's a queue at Australia House on election day.

Belgium has enforced voting too

Even countries which are more or less dictatures like Serbia or something don't It's a no good system, nothing but complaints going on about it

There's a 99% turnup though, and sometimes, when you're in bad luck, you will have to court if you do not go (when you're foreign, like me, you don't have to vote but for European and Local elections, you are allowed to, and when you subscribe you're forced to, do you get this )

Mayor downside of such a system: don't care a s**t votes, of which most go to the Flemish Block overhere, so it's a huge advantage for extremists, because, those who don't vote, are by far the biggest complainers

Conclusion: Stay away of such a system

[Dave R]

IF THE ANSWER ISN'T VIOLENCE, NEITHER IS YOUR SILENCE......

Human Beings lost their lives over the right to vote, it is a crime to disrespect that. Period.

[boudicca]

I must say there's something kind of... scarily undemocratic about forcing people to vote, which always makes my hackles rise...

BUT I think the media etc. could do a lot to make not voting less socially acceptable. The way they cover the topic of voter apathy always seems to be slanted towards blaming the politicians and parties for not being "inspiring" enough, and never actually questioning the electorate.

[Francis]

Personally, I can't understand why anyone would choose not to vote. But then I became politically aware around the time Thatcher came to power. All my A level literature seemed to have a socialist leaning and then Neil Kinnock spoke at my 6th form presentation evening in 1981. There was only ever one Party for me from then onwards. Watney's Red barrel.

[Black Alice]

There was a discussion on any questions on radio 4 this morning and the majority, by a show of hands and later by phoning in, said that they favoured some sort of electoral reform - not necessarily p.r.

I think that if you have the honour of being entitled to vote you should - not just because suffragettes threw themselves under horses, but because, until relatively recently, it was only landowners who got to vote (so that left out a large proportion of the male population as well). However, I don't think that in a democracy you can justify forcing people to use their vote.

Still, if we had a fairer system ( and I would like to consider p.r) maybe more than 60% of the population would see a point to voting.

*gets off soap box*

[Red Orc]

Hi all, I know this thread's been dead for a couple of days, but I haven't checked the forums for a few days so what the hell.

Andy Mackem is quite right - in many constituencies the turnout is already below 50% (especially safe Labour seats as Andy and I know very well). For council elections - smaller electorates, more frequent, so a better sampling of opinion ie MORE DEMOCRATIC - turnout is rarely above 50%. For European elections - based on PR so MORE DEMOCRATIC - turnout is rarely above 50%. Conclusion? Most people think our 'democratic system' is rubbish.

Parties do not represent the interests of large groups of people, they represent their paymasters - very small and powerful groups of people. If they do seek to represent the interests of people in general, they end up like the Socialist Alternative or Socialist Labour parties - committed to the return of British Rail (coz that wasn't s**t when we had it) or all living in Cuba (coz that's a 'socialist paradise' with its concentration camps for homosexuals and dissenters). Praise Comrade Stalin (a bigger mass murderer than Hitler)! Strengthen the State! Bring back Old Labour! The '70s weren't s**t! Oh yes they were (I remember).

I don't have a problem with democracy in principle - I just think we should apply it. Instead, as I have said before and elsewhere, we have an elective dictatorship - choosing every four years or so who misgoverns us is not democracy, any more than a shop which sells thirty flavours of Pot Noodle and nothing else is freedom of choice. The idea that you should 'stand yourself' is ludicrous. That's like telling a vegetarian to get a job in a slaughterhouse or stop complaining.

As to anyone coming up with a better system, Russia from 1917 to about 1920 looks like the start of a better system to me...

(waits for the flood of abuse disguised as 'but what you've failed to realise'-type emails...)

[markfiend]

Ideally, every bill that comes before Parliament should be voted on by the whole electorate. But that would be way cumbersome and nothing would ever get done.

You're right about the parties truly representing only their paymasters; I'm reminded of the Bill Hicks quote:
"I vote for the puppet on the left hand."
"The puppet on the right hand has policies more in line with my ideas"
"Wait a minute, both puppets are controlled by the same guy..."

I was under the impression that democracy was meant to be "of the people, by the people, for the people" not "of the people, by the corruptible, for the corruptors"...