Rock Guitarin' and Goth

[Rosalie]

I go to a guitar forum called guitar geek where a few people who were once involved in the "goth" scene in "various" cities and a few that weren't really don't like the whole thing. They claim it's a "dead" and dull world of music, and that the people are hostile, and pretentious, and the whole scene is full of s**t. They also said that all the dumb goths liked Faith and the Muse when I mentioned them once, and the smarter ones liked different bands That hurt.

Interestingly, I've often heard the same from the "other side" about the "other side", if you know what you mean. A lot of serious guitar playing/rock type people consider most goth stuff, and stuff like the sisters, pretty lame. It kinda hurts because my band mate who's a bit of a metal head doesn't like a lot of my favourite stuff, whereas I would like most of what he likes, I'm a bit more open minded I guess. Oh well.

What think you to this?

Also, can anyone help me pick a new humbucker for a guitar I intend on getting?

[markfiend]

My 2p:

"Goth" music (or at least the post-punk scene from which The Sisters emerged) tended to play down the out-and-out muso thing in favour of a "do-it-yourself" attitude. Two guitars, three chords, hey ho let's go.

Whereas metal/rock (in some forms) has more of a tradition of musicianship; guitar solos, changing time-signatures, things that come down from proto-metal like Zeppelin, through prog-rock influences; all the (allegedly) self-indulgent art-rock-w@nk that punk was trying to react against.

So "serious" musicians/music fans (or those who take themselves too seriously) prefer the "serious" music, and kinda miss the point about "our" stuff.

[lazarus corporation]

I presume a lot of metal guitarists don't rate the Sisters' songs because:

1. Sisters guitar lines are p*ss easy to play
2. There are very few wailing teeth-gritting eye-straining crotch-thrusting masturbatory guitar solos at the 20th fret on Sisters records (thank god), and
3. Sisters guitar lines are p*ss easy to play

[markfiend]

We're in agreement then lc.

[lazarus corporation]

We're in agreement then lc.

absolutely

[James Blast]

What's the matter with the clothes I'm wearing?
"Can't you tell that your tie's too wide?"
Maybe I should buy some old tab collars?
"Welcome back to the age of jive.
Where have you been hidin' out lately, honey?
You can't dress trashy till you spend a lot of money."
Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound
Funny, but it's still rock and roll to me

What's the matter with the car I'm driving?
"Can't you tell that it's out of style?"
Should I get a set of white wall tires?
"Are you gonna cruise the miracle mile?
Nowadays you can't be too sentimental
Your best bet's a true baby blue Continental."
Hot funk, cool punk, even if it's old junk
It's still rock and roll to me

Oh, it doesn't matter what they say in the papers
'Cause it's always been the same old scene.
There's a new band in town
But you can't get the sound from a story in a magazine...
Aimed at your average teen

How about a pair of pink sidewinders
And a bright orange pair of pants?
"You could really be a Beau Brummel baby
If you just give it half a chance.
Don't waste your money on a new set of speakers,
You get more mileage from a cheap pair of sneakers."
Next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways
It's still rock and roll to me

What's the matter with the crowd I'm seeing?
"Don't you know that they're out of touch?"
Should I try to be a straight 'A' student?
"If you are then you think too much.
Don't you know about the new fashion honey?
All you need are looks and a whole lotta money."
It's the next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways
It's still rock and roll to me

Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound
Funny, but it's still rock and roll to me

the Devil made me do it

[Rosalie]

You see, that's the thing I don't like about goth, and the thing I don't like about rock/metal.

Goth has too little emphasis on the instruments, and their being played as a whole.
Rock and metal has too much emphasis on the soloing and hard hitting riffs and the song gets lost underneath.

I like songs that are a good balance between the two, ideally, which is why I think my "band" can really make good music, since it's made up of a rocker/metalhead and an goth/alt rocker.

A lot of prog is very technical but also very atmospheric, so it can generally be quite good. Dream Theater are good at maintaining an atmosphere while Petrucci and Rudess go at their mad solos every so often.

Muse is probably one of the best balances I've heard. I wish he'd do some more of his nifty Whammy solos, though

[Eva]

Welcome Rosalie...

Musically I'd second MF and LC.

Regarding style/subculture:

I'd label myself as an ex-goth (although I hate labels), and I do admit that I often shake my head in utter disbelief (and disgust) at what Goths of today - and non-Goths for that matter - like to listen to nowadays, and my reaction mainly has to do with the fact that I'm a narrow-minded, moralist old git (gittess?).

But I think every subculture has a certain (stronger or weaker) tendency to set itself apart from any other subculture and to regard itself as superior. And a lot of wanna-be-insiders feel a strong need to feel superior to anybody else who's newer to a given scene or club. I just think that lies in the nature of subculture and is something one just has to ignore as much as so-called rules about what one should listen to and what one should consider crap.

In my humble opinion there's just one rule: Everybody who's acting as if he/she was superior to you and/or who wants to tell you what one listens to or not, is simply not worth the effort. At least once upon a time in the western world punk, and therefore post-punk (and gothic as it's offspring) was about ignoring rules, about not playing by the "rules of the game". Of course it lies in the nature of things that there are tendencies to set up new rules, but it's a crap tendency and it's against the spirit of the original thing (punk, post-punk etc.).

*sigh* I guess I just needed my daily fix of ranting....

[Eva]

Sorry, I know there's an apostrophe too many in there and I know the difference between its and it's.

I apologize.

[Rosalie]

Hmm, I like a lot of the "Newer" goth stuff like Switchblade Symphony, I think they're great. But a lot of the stuff is a bit too electronic and dancy for my liking. I don't mind a bit of electronic, but I'd feel like a twit if i had too much of it on my computer or in my record collection, and I imagine I'd tire of it very quickly. And it doesn't seem particularily "goth" to me much of them time.

That said, I'm all for use of keyboards and synthesisers as proper instruments.

[aims]

Hooray for synths!

We don't need no stinkin' guitars, just ask Korin

What I love about synths and keyboards is that you don't have to spend 40 quid on a lump of metal to step on between songs to change your sound. Although you can buy extra modules, a standard keyboard/synth comes with so many gorgeous sounds (except my bloody one which has about 100 silly DJ voices shouting odd dance-type things) to play with.

That said, I'd actually consider myself more of a guitarist than a keyboard player.

[Rosalie]

I love collecting guitar pedals, adore them. I even use them with my keyboard. A wonderful way to make a digital synth into an analog synth is to use a Wah between it and the output.

Also, I suggest you stay away from the lower end Yamaha PSR series if you want to get away from the "DJ!" stuff. My Roland U20 is great but I need to get some extra cards for all the sounds.

[lazarus corporation]

a Zoom 4040 does the job for me

(but the wahwah is s**t, so gets replaced with a Jim Dunlop)

[Quiff Boy]

i like my pod xt

and my bass likes its bass v-amp pro

[Rosalie]

Pod XT Lives are okay, but not a single one of my pedals is modelled on it. So bleh.

I have my rig, and my Microcube for "amp modelling".

Digital distortion is usually (but not always) kind of cack, in my opinion.
Digital Wah isn't too good for the same reason analog synths are so much better than digital synths, they're too clean cut and specific which isn't how a wah works. Some do a good job of emulating it, but it's never quite the same.
Digital Mod effects are often quite okay since you can pitch shift properly digitally, instead of using delay and "speed" based methods to alter pitch/create vibrato.
But you still get so much whacky stuff. I have a Red Witch Moon Phaser which I doubt will ever be modelled, it's a boutique effect not modelled on a classic phaser. Wonderful pedal.

I prefer analogue equipment, only getting digital pedals when I need to. I have a Digitech Digidelay, a Digital Chorus(which I mainly go because it's so damn weird sounding with all the different options it has on it) and I'll probably get a Whammy. Apart from that, I'll try to keep my circuit mostly analogue.

[lazarus corporation]

I have to admit that my old Electro-Harmonix Electric Mistress flanger was probably un-modelable - it would make strange "Loop/Spacemen 3"-type noises without me even touching the guitar. Unfortunately the big "crackle-crunch-crackle" that the footswitch produced made it's appearance on a guitar track none too subtle. Plus it only took mains power, which was a bit tricky for live work.

I still haven't found the ultimate distortion pedal, and have started trying to model something vaguely close to the sound I want on the Zoom 4040.

[Rosalie]

The RATs are pretty good. The Turbo RAT is one of my alt time favourites. Usually though, a lot of people like Amp Distortion better.

Personally, I don't as much, I prefer my Fuzz Factory. It cost a ton but it probably is the best fuzz ever, except for maybe the Zoom Fuzz pedal.

I'd love an electric mistress for a flanger.

[Dark]

Hooray for synths!

We don't need no stinkin' guitars, just ask Korin

To be honest, I still have an electric guitar next to my computer, if I want to play along to Anaconda or Dark Entries then I will, but I've started rushing to the other side of the room, lying on the floor and playing along on the keyboard.

I don't use guitars, basses or drums in my band for the simple reason that recording them all should be done in a studio if you want anything good sounding, and drums are a pain in the ass to record.
The synth software and drum machine software provide me with as much as I need, and the sounds can be messed around with to the point of unrecognition in the mixing software. And since they're software, there's no degradation in sound quality at all. Keyboards can just be plugged into the computer, and vocals can just be done through my £10 mic, sung through a sieve to remove breath sounds.

And when it's all done, it all sounds fine. All recorded and mixed for free.

[Obviousman]

...I do admit that I often shake my head in utter disbelief (and disgust) at what Goths of today - and non-Goths for that matter - like to listen to nowadays, and my reaction mainly has to do with the fact that I'm a narrow-minded, moralist old git (gittess?)...

Goth music of these days is way too much about whining women with way too high pitch voices

[Andie]

What's the matter with the crowd I'm seeing?
"Don't you know that they're out of touch?"
Should I try to be a straight 'A' student?
"If you are then you think too much.
Don't you know about the new fashion honey?
All you need are looks and a whole lotta money."
It's the next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways
It's still rock and roll to me

Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound
Funny, but it's still rock and roll to me

the Devil made me do it

too much James...and the single is still one of those that i bought a long long time ago...in a galaxy far far away...(Billy Joel... )

[Eva]

Goth music of these days is way too much about whining women with way too high pitch voices

I'm so glad you said that....

[Dark]

Deleted

[Andie]

sorry guys...but

IMHO the Goth tag that is apllied to so many darkwave/industrial bands is just wasted...todays Goth seems to be just a perversion of rock...death rock and something called psychogothabilly...and believe me...a night out listening to that is mind numbing...so much so that when the DJ (i use that term losely) does play something decent you've managed to find a comfy seat and don't want to move, or you can't place the song, or the bast@rd has put on Adam & The Antz, or you've already left and gone home...

am i just remembering the 80's to fondly and forgetting the w@nk that surrounded the clubs and warped the japaneese tourists with their artybatcavecrapwannabes London Goth posse haircuts?...

surely i didn't say haircuts and goth in the same sentance?...ooops...done it again...

[ruffers]

All those many forms of dance music.. "house" "club" "acid house" "deep house" "hard house" "trance" "hard trance".. not only can no-one (including the DJs) tell them apart, but they're either a guy speaking fast over a drum machine, or a woman trying to sing.

What the hell is WRONG with these people?

Dark, have you much of an understanding of dance music then? At a basic level none of the genres quoted would include a "guy speaking fast over a drum machine" although admittedly there are wailing women, something which generally puts me right off a tune.

The DJ's can't tell them apart? Where does that come from?

For Christ's sake, there's good dance music, there's some great dance music actually, and there's some bad. There's some good goth music, and there's some s**t. If one realises that about basically all music and then takes the time to listen with an open mind then the chance arises to appreciate a much wider musical world.

To dismiss a whole style of music out of hand is crazy.

[aims]

They're either a guy speaking fast over a drum machine, or a woman trying to sing.

Sounds like the last 30 seconds of Under the Gun