London Bombs - Part 2

Johnny M · 25 Jul 2005, 15:05

CorpPunk wrote:Red interior.

I'll bail out on this one. You really don't want to know.

CorpPunk · 25 Jul 2005, 15:58

Water. Monitor. Bastard.

Johnny M · 25 Jul 2005, 16:03

The depths we plunge to for our art.

Debaser · 25 Jul 2005, 21:20

RicheyJames wrote:
andymackem wrote:A split-second decision after he had been apprehended? A split-second decision to shoot him in the head five times at point-blank range while holding him to the floor of the carriage? (according to eye-witness reports, I wasn't there).
from what i can tell, this version of events is based on the testimony of one eye-witness and yet it seems to have been accpeted in many quarters as fact. i struggle to believe that this is exactly what happened but then i've never subscribed to the "all police are bastards" theory.

This doesn't make me feel any safer using the tube: I'm probably now more concerned about drawing myself to the attentions of the police than I am about being blown up by a mad muslim.
my advice: don't jump the ticket barrier in the near future!

Francis wrote:And now it appears, they watched him get on a bus. So what did he do after that to make them suspect he was a suicide bomber?
from what i can gather: he failed to stop when challenged. or rather he ran from the police, hurdled over a ticket barrier and tried to get away on a train.

I agree with both sides...yes it would have been terrible if he had been a bomber and yes I agree the police must be able to prevent such massive loss of life...

BUT the guy (and yes he shouldn't have run) was pinned down and shot 8 times...not split second at all.

eastmidswhizzkid · 26 Jul 2005, 02:55

all coppers are bastards.

and no,you don't have to agree with me.
my (far too numerous to list) firsthand experiences of their petty-minded adherrence to dubious regulations;hypocritical enforcement of laws they personally think they are above;vindictive discrimination against minorities and school-bully-like persecution of individuals;abuse of power;and reluctance to "serve" the public in non-bonus related (and therefore 'inefficient') roles have led me to this opinion.
(not to mention the fact that most crimes are solved by "grasses" -not police "brain" power.)

perhaps other people's experiences are different.

andymackem · 26 Jul 2005, 10:27

One point that has been overlooked in the whole 'he shouldn't have run' thing is that these were plainclothes officers.

So effectively we have a man who gets off the bus and is pursued by unidentifiable people waving guns, claiming to be police and demanding he stops. In Brixton, a part of London renowned (rightly or wrongly) for high levels of armed crime, mugging etc.

I'm guessing most of us haven't had a gun pointed at us (it's quite frightening and doesn't do much to aid rational thought).

But it doesn't take much imagination to see why someone might choose to run away from the people holding the guns. Intelligent? Maybe not. Understandable? Probably, yes.

It's not about whether or not the police, individually or collectively, are bastards. It's about whether the shoot to kill policy is a practical way of making London safer. Incidents like this are not encouraging.

ruffers · 26 Jul 2005, 10:35

Well if a bomb attack kills 50 then the police will have to shoot that many innocent people in error before their actions make London less safe, assuming they do stop a bombing in the end.
Possibly.

There was another chap on the radio the other day who was given fairly short shrift by the presenter. He was an academic and presented his view in fairly dry academic terms, unfortunately he was discussing risk management and assessment. In the wake of the Stockwell incident objectivity was a bit scarce and when he started talking about more people being run over in a couple of weeks than died in the bombing, with the conclusion we should stop worrying about it so much, it didn't go down too well in the studio.

andymackem · 26 Jul 2005, 12:25

ruffers wrote:Well if a bomb attack kills 50 then the police will have to shoot that many innocent people in error before their actions make London less safe, assuming they do stop a bombing in the end.
Possibly.

No. The risk of a successful bomb attack is roughly the same as it was before July 7. Based on a crude guess at the number of tube passengers, and working on the assumption that a 7/7 style attack would succeed every day I roughed out a figure of 200,000-1 against being killed by a suicide bomber. Shooting innocent commuters doesn't change that figure.

However it does introduce a new risk - being shot by the police. Currently, using my same crude guess and assuming Stockwell was repeated every day, that would be 10m-1 against. It's a much smaller risk, but it's an extra risk. Before 7/7 the risk would have been zero, so in simple probability terms they are making the place less safe.

So on the one hand I know armed police might shoot me if I'm 'suspicious' (luckily I'm white, so I won't look that suspicious to them). I also know that armed plainclothes police are patrolling the tube. On the other hand, I've no idea whether there will be further terrorist attacks.

At the moment the police are not actually contributing to my feeling of safety, even if their wider anti-terrorist efforts are contributing to my actual safety.

But the chap who points out our roads are more dangerous is absolutely spot on. The risk assessment I've produced is realistic, and I would take those odds fairly happily - just like I trust myself to cross a road without getting run over.

eastmidswhizzkid · 26 Jul 2005, 14:23

andymackem wrote:One point that has been overlooked in the whole 'he shouldn't have run' thing is that these were plainclothes officers.

actually i did mention it breifly -page 6,2nd post- but people are more likely to listen to you

RicheyJames · 26 Jul 2005, 15:17

i'm not sure the fact that the police were in plain-clothes is at all relevant.

for one, i'm pretty damn sure that if anyone pointed a gun in my general direction i'd go out of my way not to upset him. whether he's a cop or a mugger he's surely far less likely to shoot if you comply with his requests?

secondly, and i think more importantly, there were (reportedly) plenty of uniformed police in the vicinity of the station. had our brazilian friend run to them and explained he was being chased by men with guns i have no doubt that the tragic events which later occurred could have been avoided.

ruffers · 26 Jul 2005, 15:28

You confident about that? "Suicide bomber" runs towards a bunch of uniforms, I reckon the only difference would have been more bullets. I thought his visa had expired as well which is hardly likely to send him toward them.

This one just has to get filed under "s**t happens". Over wrought public (all the witnesses said "He looked Asian"), plus over anxious police plus international city = misunderstandings. Unfortunately for Snr Menezes that equals death.

And it will equal the same thing for other individuals as well, so we all play the odds.

RicheyJames · 27 Jul 2005, 10:53

ruffers · 27 Jul 2005, 10:58

Excellent

andymackem · 27 Jul 2005, 11:04

ruffers wrote:This one just has to get filed under "s**t happens". Over wrought public (all the witnesses said "He looked Asian"), plus over anxious police plus international city = misunderstandings. Unfortunately for Snr Menezes that equals death.

OK, so we have over-wrought Muslim fundamentalists ('They looked like decadent infidels', said one of the people arrested), plus over-zealous military engagements in the middle east plus an international city = suicide bombers.

Sh_it, as you say, happens. Unfortunately for 50-odd people that equals death. It's not worth worrying about, is it.

I don't think you can just shrug this one off, to be honest.

ruffers · 27 Jul 2005, 11:43

Not trying to shrug it off, and not saying itâ€™s not worth worrying about. What I am saying is that it was almost inevitable, and remains highly likely for a repeat.

andymackem · 27 Jul 2005, 11:54

OK, but 'sh_it' happens sounds like a shrug to me

Brideoffrankenstein · 27 Jul 2005, 20:51

Is someone able to tell me if the tubes are running normally now? I have to get from Liverpool Street to Farringdon on friday and on sunday I have to get to Euston from Victoria

andymackem · 27 Jul 2005, 22:04

I think the Victoria Line is fine, so your Sunday trip should be straightforward.

Not sure about Lpl St - Farringdon. It will be a restricted service at best if the Circle Line is still out and the Hammersmith & City is problematic.

But for up to date information, try looking up the TfL website (probably www.tfl.org.uk) or www.bbc.co.uk/london. Or Ceefax p400.

Brideoffrankenstein · 27 Jul 2005, 22:19

andymackem wrote: Not sure about Lpl St - Farringdon. It will be a restricted service at best if the Circle Line is still out and the Hammersmith & City is problematic

Doesn't the metropolitan line go through Liverpool street and Farringdon? Is that working?

lazarus corporation · 27 Jul 2005, 22:21

Brideoffrankenstein wrote:
andymackem wrote: Not sure about Lpl St - Farringdon. It will be a restricted service at best if the Circle Line is still out and the Hammersmith & City is problematic
Doesn't the metropolitan line go through Liverpool street and Farringdon? Is that working?

Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan both go from Liverpool St to Farringdon. I think they're both working

Brideoffrankenstein · 27 Jul 2005, 22:26

lazarus corporation wrote:
Brideoffrankenstein wrote:
andymackem wrote: Not sure about Lpl St - Farringdon. It will be a restricted service at best if the Circle Line is still out and the Hammersmith & City is problematic
Doesn't the metropolitan line go through Liverpool street and Farringdon? Is that working?
Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan both go from Liverpool St to Farringdon. I think they're both working

You think? If not I won't get to Brighton!