New Orleans, if it happened here

[ruffers]

I've been trying to imagine what it would be like to have similar destruction happening in a major UK city and how we would react.

I'd like to think that our Britishness would stop there being quite so much in the way of looting and lawlessness, and I'm sure that our limited access to weapons would make sure things weren't quite the same. Quite how far below the surface and how deep a scratch it would take for a descent to lawlessness to occur though is open to debate.

So what's happened there, is it because they're American? Poor? Armed? Or just plain human?

I dunno, but it frightens me.

[Dark]

I'd like to think we'd do things a little better.
We don't build cities below sea-level, on a swamp, with a lake on one side and a huge river on the other.
(Strange how when I heard about it I thought about When The Levee Breaks)

We might have some anger, but hopefully none of what's going on over there. Rape.. murder..

[lazarus corporation]

I think it would be similar, although the scarcity of guns would hopefully make things a little less fatal. Civilisation is tissue thin, as Golding pointed out in Lord of the Flies.

The oft-quoted axiom that we're three meals away from anarchy (couldn't find a source for that quote, apart from Rimmer in the 3rd season of Red Dwarf and I don't quite think that was the original quote...) is accurate.

"Britishness" might keep things going for another meal after the third (so long as cups of tea were still available) but that's just from a socially instilled fear of complaining, not from any innate strength of character.

[boudicca]

Wot Laz said.

I think it is fundementally a case of the law of the jungle taking over. The selfishness of human nature, which is that much stronger in survival situations.

Because our (British) civilization is slightly different from the American Way, maybe we would be a little more hesitant to go for it with such gusto, but I think our basic human drive to get as much as we can, when we can, is much more deeply ingrained than anything we've learnt from the society we happen to live in.

I wouldn't shoot anyone, but I'd nick a couple of penny sweets if I could...

[Obviousman]

You know, in Holland there has been this disaster (clicky) in 1953, flooding big parts of The Netherland's lower delta... As you know or might not know, main parts of Holland are below sea-level, and so they get easily flooded...
Of course this all was before the age where computers, electricity and whatsoever more reign, and so people could cope more easily with several discomforts, but still afaik they managed to keep it peaceful...

I think lots of the problems we see now are inherent to America's society and of course the climate as well. It's terribly hot out there, which gets people to dry out sooner than they would here, obviously it's very humid and there are much more problems I'm affraid...

Lets just hope we'll not see a disaster like this in these parts of the worlds, because people are much more polarized these days and most of us aren't used anymore to live in Spartanic circumstances...

[Brideoffrankenstein]

I can't believe that the US Government hasn't done more to help and I also can't believe it's turning a bit Judge Dredd-ish (Can't remember the name of the city, well I can but it might be wrong )

[boudicca]

I can't believe that the US Government hasn't done more to help and I also can't believe it's turning a bit Judge Dredd-ish (Can't remember the name of the city, well I can but it might be wrong )

Yeah, I heard Tha Dubs suggesting that the people turn to the Salvation Army... "They're really great people"...

f**king plonker. You're the President, donut! Pathetic.

[emilystrange]

i was gonna say he won't get voted in again, but he's in his second term.. just as well

[nick the stripper]

It'd be like butlins.

[CorpPunk]

I think it's ridiculous to posit that "Britishness," or a claim to any nationality apart from American, would ensure that a population in crisis could act in a more civilized manner than New Orleanians are acting now.

The people trapped in the city are, on the whole, people who were too poor to leave to being with; they have nothing left to lose, and for the first five days after the hurricane, there was no help in sight--as far as they could see there was nothing left to gain either. And you have to remember, it's not as if those 50,000-100,000 people are only in a state of "discomfort," such as a lack of air-conditioning for a few days. There has been no food, no clean water, no electricity, no waste clean-up, no medical care, limited shelter, 90-degree tropical heat, and a very limited police force and fire brigade since Monday (over 1/3 of the police and fire workers deserted after the hurricane). People are dying in the streets and being left where they fall.

Think about it: If you were living in a boiling cess pool of human waste and rotting corpses for four days with no food or water, no help, no one to stand up and keep the peace, and no way out, do you really think you would remember to lift your pinky when you sipped your tea? What would be highest on your list of priorities at that point? Would you even have priorities?

I'm furious about the federal government's (lack of) response to this--if it takes five days to mobilize a sizeable military aid force to a location within the continental United States, I think the disaster response training methods need to be re-evaluated a.s.a. fuckin' p. But I have to say, sitting back and judging the behavior of these people, and actually asserting that if you were in that position you'd be acting a little more civilized, is irrelevant to say the least.

Call me a bleeding-heart liberal, but I don't blame the police for deserting, I don't blame the people for shooting at rescue helicopters (such as they were), I don't blame them for "looting," for their general state of lawlessness. I don't condone it, but I understand it.

P.s. Bush can't get voted in again. There's a law against it. (22nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution sets a two-term limit for the President. Thank you FDR.)

[CorpPunk]

God, I should just join a third party, start hugging trees, and get it over with, shouldn't I?

[Dark]

The cannibalism has started.

Soylent Green anyone?

[ruffers]

I'd like to see something approaching a reputable source for that Dark. It takes more than a few days for people to hit that level surely.

[MadameButterfly]

Reading the comments posted and being here in Holland (under sea-level) the thought of a wave or anything to do with huge amounts of water...leaves me thinking

What is happening in New Orleans...is never wished upon anyone anywhere although baits the States and in doing so Bush....devil dressed in a sheeps' cloak...but the *panic* is understandable as is after such a natural disaster...to be it.

Horror stories are those which are real...poor children dying in the streets everyday....millions dying of hunger everyday.....people help people everyday.....

People should say what is on their minds......I hope the help troops do help the people in need and my heart goes out to the loss suffered.
There will be more *natural disasters'* in the cycle of life and I am so pleased we can say that here on hl too. Let's hope we can handle it.

Love MB

[The Pope]

As an American, I don't think I'd react the same in the same situation.

The people down there are poor and uneducated. This might be a sweeping generalization, but this combination is deadly to begin with. When New Orleans isn't underwater, it's just as dangerous. When you go there they say, "If you leave the French Quarter, you will get mugged," and from what I've heard, that's basically true. These people might be people, but I have a sneaky suspicion that because of their background, they don't think it's as much a big deal to steal a gun and shoot someone as some of us might.

Furthermore, if you had been living in extreme poverty all your life in some s**t hole in the South, wouldn't you have some pent up anger for the government and anyone associated with it? When the answer to "What have you done for me lately?" is "nothing" and it's their fault the levees were such s**t and they've got their heads up their asses when they say they're going to help you, how would you feel?

I might not shoot someone, but I'm sure I'd be angry. But I'm not poor and uneducated.

[The Pope]

And to stay on topic, I don't know how it would be if it happened in Europe or England or wherever "here" is. I think it really depends on where.

[smiscandlon]

As an American, I don't think I'd react the same in the same situation.

The people down there are poor and uneducated. This might be a sweeping generalization, but this combination is deadly to begin with. When New Orleans isn't underwater, it's just as dangerous. When you go there they say, "If you leave the French Quarter, you will get mugged," and from what I've heard, that's basically true. These people might be people, but I have a sneaky suspicion that because of their background, they don't think it's as much a big deal to steal a gun and shoot someone as some of us might.

Furthermore, if you had been living in extreme poverty all your life in some s**t hole in the South, wouldn't you have some pent up anger for the government and anyone associated with it? When the answer to "What have you done for me lately?" is "nothing" and it's their fault the levees were such s**t and they've got their heads up their asses when they say they're going to help you, how would you feel?

I might not shoot someone, but I'm sure I'd be angry. But I'm not poor and uneducated.

Possibly a controversial viewpoint, but probably valid. Where I live (Govan) has similarities - half the folk around here are little better than f**king animals anyway, and I've no doubt that the first hint of a breakdown of law & order in a 'disaster' situation would bring out the very worst in these people.

[CorpPunk]

I think that saying animalistic behavior is expected in the poor and uneducated is proof that education doesn't protect against ignorance, namely prejudice. Just because a person isn't privileged enough to be able to afford the astronomical prices of even state university education in the U.S. doesn't mean that they'll immediately turn murderer and rapist the minute they get a chance. Likewise, an Ivy League degree doesn't guarantee "civilized" behavior in an extreme crisis circumstance. And education doesn't necessarily guarantee against poverty.

Most of the people left in the city are poor because they were the ones who couldn't afford to evacuate themselves. The middle-class and educated have no idea how they'd react in that situation because they've never been tested, and have the resources to ensure that they probably never will be. Expecting that you'd never react in a violent way in a similar circumstance and judging the "poor and uneducated" as a group on that basis is not the same as knowing from experience that you wouldn't act that way, or knowing that the rich and educated as a group wouldn't act like that. I doubt that every individual in New Orleans since the hurricane has committed a rape or a shooting simply because they're poor and don't have a piece of paper saying they've spent a hell of a lot of money to read some books. Why would a formal education guarantee that a person would act decently in an extreme crisis situation? I would suggest that living a privileged life might actually make a person more vulnerable to uncivilized behavior in a such a situation, because they'd have less of an idea how to deal with it. The poor and uneducated and homeless have at least been living in a way that approaches the post-hurricane environment (scrounging for food and water, no shelter, no help from anyone) their whole lives. Who would be more likely to crack? The rich and educated person who's lost everything and doesn't have the help that he/she is used to, or the poor person who's just going about business as usual?


New Orleans is considered a dangerous city, but I've been there a couple of times, including this past June, and I wasn't mugged. I grew up in a city with just as high a violent crime rate as New Orleans, in a poor, unsafe neighborhood, and I've never been mugged in my life. In N.O. it's usually the idiot tourists with their flash clothes and seven pounds of beads out of season who get mugged after they accidentally wander into an unsafe neighborhood, because they don't know any better and don't bother to learn. That's because money and education doesn't always guarantee against stupid behavior.

Every city has its good neighborhoods and its bad neighborhoods, its rich and its poor. The have-nots have traditionally always been left behind by the haves, and as such, I don't really think it depends that heavily on where. In fact, couldn't one consider it "uncivilized" of the rich and educated to have left the poor and uneducated to fend for themselves, because they were too busy saving their own asses? I personally think it reprehensible, but hardly surprising. The rich saved themselves at the expense of the poor. Why are they now so appalled that the poor are attempting to save themselves at the expense of others? Oh, that's right, because they're civilized.

[emilystrange]

Britain is sending half a million READY MEALS???

[Dark]

I'd like to see something approaching a reputable source for that Dark. It takes more than a few days for people to hit that level surely.

Front page of the Sunday Express. If anyone else on Heartland is unfortunate enough to be brought this, it's third line on the second paragraph, and the story continues on P6.

The shocking revelation comes amid claims that desperate victims in the hurrican ravaged city turned to cannibalism to survive

[emilystrange]

does that count as a reputable source? ish?

[ruffers]

I'd like to see something approaching a reputable source for that Dark. It takes more than a few days for people to hit that level surely.

Front page of the Sunday Express.

[/quote]

I'd still like to see something approaching a reputable source then....

[andymackem]

@ Dark: The Sunday Express is a long way from a reputable source. And a journalist printing unsourced 'claims' is almost certainly flying a kite.

Also @ Dark: As for not building cities below sea level, that's broadly true. We have, however, built our capital on a tidal floodplain. Just because Lincoln is on the only hill between the Pennines and the Tatras doesn't mean every English town is the same

@ pretty much everyone: Re: 'decency': what happened in the tsunami countries? I read a quote from a Sri Lankan in The Observer today, the thrust of which was: 'we were much better behaved than those Americans'. No idea how true that may or may not be, though. A fairly typical piece of Observer sabre-rattling, arguably.

@ Ems: Finally, without wishing to sound heartless, why are we (or anyone else) sending aid to the USA? What can we possibly provide which isn't already available over there? Surely the failure isn't a lack of resources but a total logistical breakdown meaning they aren't lining up where they are needed? Half-a-million EU-endorsed ready meals aren't worth the carbon emissions to fly them over the Atlantic if you can drive them from Dallas in half the time.

[emilystrange]

well quite. it was just the thought of 500,000 bird's eye roast beef dinners.. i'm sorry, but it made me laugh.

depends on how much of a reserve of stores like that the military hold, i guess.

[Silver_Owl]

I find it very hard to believe whether it's in print or not. People don't turn to canabilism that quickly. And it says 'claims'.....


A people come to this
Beyond the age of reason
A people fed on famine
A people on their knees and
People eat each other