Is Von Gay?

[aims]

Was Under The Gun about pants? No.

Are several of Von's songs about sexual attraction? That and drugs.

[smiscandlon]

Was Under The Gun about pants? No.

Are several of Von's songs about sexual attraction? That and drugs.

And his choice of drugs has been discussed at length...

[smiscandlon]

On a funnier note, caught a typo in my last post just before pressing submit.

And his choice of dugs has been discussed at length...

[scotty]

Was Under The Gun about pants? No.

Not about pants Motz, no, but would it have much difference what colour they were, about as much difference as whether he fancies Joanna Lumley more than David Beckham .

[aims]

He may well fancy David Beckham more than Joanna Lumley - it's not like he's done an interview since the former was born in which to say so

[boudicca]

Anybody know what colour of pants wore when he wrote "Under The Gun" . Does it matter?, does it f**k.

It matters to me...

I don't think he's gay but he seems to be a perma-bachelor, that's for sure. And his attitude to women seems pretty dodgy, but I think that's more to do with them being members of the human race than anything. He's not exactly known for being a charmer to the men in his life either.

It sounds very amateur psychoanalyst I know, but it does seem to me that he has had some sort of unpleasantness in his history (childhood or slightly later) that could perhaps account for the rather hard, cynical, and... quite sad attitude that he sometimes expresses, both in lyrics and in interviews. His outlook's obviously got him through alright, but I don't envy him it.

Still, he looks fab in a pair of leather trousers...

[Mr.Mercy]

Years ago a had a magazine of press cuttings etc.There was a top ten list of "things you don't know about Mr.Eldritch".I remember that he had a copy of the careless whisper 12" by George Michael.This fits very well,har har

[Andrew S]

A.R.Kane, what prompts you to ask such a question? Does his sexuality really matter?

Of course it matters. it matters to the context of his songs as his sexuality will be integral to his art.

Er, why?

"For the record: both the band and its crew have had their share of non-heterosexuals. More than their fair share, for all I know. I don't know because I don't ask and I don't care." - Eldritch, UTR X.

Besides this, he has in various interviews made references to his attraction to Joanna Lumley, Stevie Nicks, Ofra Haza, Julia Roberts, Isabelle Adjani et al. That and the above quote tell me 2 things - that he is heterosexual, and that he isn't particularly bothered if people think otherwise.

I fail to see what difference it should make one way or another. So unless you really want to get into his pants (and fancy your chances) why give a damn? He is on record for stating that although he's heterosexual, he prefers to write songs "by people about people". Gender has f**k all to do with emotions and, quite frankly, I fail to see what difference it should make to his "art" whatever his sexual orientation.

[aims]

As much difference as his drug of choice, which no one got ridiculously defensive about. Some of you of you are acting as though a.r.kane has accused him of being a Nazi and frankly, I'm taking more than passive offence at the undercurrent of intolerance.

Grow the f**k up. If people can discuss different drug preferences, they can discuss different gender preferences.

[lazarus corporation]

@Motz - I really don't think that people are dismissing the a.r.kane's suggestion because of intolerance and homophobia, which appears to be what you're suggesting, but rather because it's a ridiculous suggestion (in that it's contradicted by numerous interviews and other references) with more than a hint of trollishness about it.

Basically it's being reacted to with the same disdain as the theory "is Von black?" would be- not due to racism, but because the proposition is fairly bloody unlikely considering the evidence. Except we'd be able to do some good black=goth jokes along the line.

Anyway since we've managed to prove Godwin's Law once again, then it's probably time for this thread to be closed by a moderator.

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

Although the law does not specifically mention it, there is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

[aims]

Not true. I only accused them of invoking Godwin's law. Look closer

Anyway, the response to him supposedly being black would be along the lines of "Erm no, that's ridiculous", not incredulity (yes it's a word, I just checked ) over what effect it would have on his music. A black person would write their songs according their experiences and if those were experiences of living in black culture and dealing with racism, then that might shine through in the music. It's a perfectly valid point of discussion - some people may not care, but to dismiss it off hand as though it's offensive is ridiculous. I'm by no means insinuating that he is gay, since Biggy has so gracefully put paid to the theory, merely highlighting issues in certain people's responses.

[biggy]

Andrew and his then long term girlfriend Claire lived together with Danny from Salvation. I visited & stayed at the house on occasion - nobody tried to bum me while I was there.
I also personally know another girl who had intimate knowledge of his gothic love stick.

Stop talking fuckin' rubbish. Are you European ?

[lazarus corporation]

Not true. I only accused them of invoking Godwin's law. Look closer

Anyway, the response to him supposedly being black would be along the lines of "Erm no, that's ridiculous", not incredulity (yes it's a word, I just checked ) over what effect it would have on his music. A black person would write their songs according their experiences and if those were experiences of living in black culture and dealing with racism, then that might shine through in the music. It's a perfectly valid point of discussion - some people may not care, but to dismiss it offend as though it's offensive is ridiculous. I'm by no means insinuating that he is gay, since Biggy has so gracefully put paid to the theory, merely highlighting issues in certain people's responses.

But absolutely no one has posted saying (or hinting) that they found the suggestion offensive. Ridiculously unlikely or unimportant yes, but never offensive.

[aims]

Putting it into perspective, I'm wrong.

Seeing people walk on egg shells about the subject daily and responding to it as though it's something to be defended against makes me hyper sensitive to people's passive prejudices. Having just indirectly dealt with the school administration on a similar issue, I saw some cringe inducing misconceptions which I'm still subconsciously on the look out for. If I had my way, it would be treated as freely as someone's taste in music, but it isn't. My reflex of defense on the subject is probably as bad as the things I want rid of. In short, I overreacted.

Apologies to those whose postings I misrepresented.

[Obviousman]

If I had my way, it would be treated as freely as someone's taste in music, but it isn't.

My opinion exactly. It's only a characteristic as every other one, but I think it's because many (gay) people live only with/for/because of that characteristic, people tend to misinterpret the consequences of it and pull it out of proportion. Just like many of us on here just life with/for/because of their taste in music and people pull that out of proportion and reduce us to that. Guess it's just because the very gay gays tend to be rather visible in society the stereotypes only get bigger...

[a.r.kane]

As you have all (well most of you) have kept this discussion on a very even keal is wonderful and you should be proud of yourselves for your self moderation, which keeps discussions alive.
Motz - your tollerance and ability to debate is a pleasure to read.

[DGP00666]

... and for all of those of you who still doubt, why don't you give a listen to "Slept" and remember how much he's attracted to Isabelle Adjani.

[Johnny M]

As you have all (well most of you) have kept this discussion on a very even keal is wonderful and you should be proud of yourselves for your self moderation, which keeps discussions alive.
Motz - your tollerance and ability to debate is a pleasure to read.

I would strongly suggest that you take this convo elsewhere. By all means respond to me in pm but if you do decide to continue then it's at your peril.

Open up your can of worms and in a liberal sense me & HL don't give a fuck. Again. For the last time

One of you I have no time for. One of you, I love to bits.

Let's just rock and roll.

[eotunun]

@ a.r.kane: Go and read the interviews with on Hallucienates homepage and then stand in the corner for asking such a silly question.

[scotty]

Can we put this one to bed now.

[biggy]

Can we put this one to bed now.

with who ? A hairy truck driver ?

[boudicca]

In short, I overreacted.

Understandable though, I think. I'm sure you're more than smart enough to realise that a lot of the "walking on eggshells" that's done (by the liberal sorts that tend to frequent this board at least ) is simply a matter of genuinely not wanting to offend or insult someone on the basis of their sexuality. Wanting to redress the balance of prejudice perhaps, and in doing so, overcompensating. And retaining this heightened awareness of the "issue" that makes it continue to be an "issue".
Bit like David Brent saying to the black guy in The Office that his favourite actor is "Mr. Sidney Poitier" (sp?)

Personally, I think a.r.kane's question is perfectly legit. Level of daftness and relevance is questionable, but in itself it doesn't seem troll-like to me.
Someone's sexuality may or may not affect their art, it's pretty dependent on the individual I think. To say that such an integral part of a human being as their experience of one of humanity's most fundamental instincts might affect the work they produce (particularly when the work deals with sex frequently)... is that so grotesquely offensive or stupid? I don't think so.

Occasionally some of Mr/Mrs Kane's posts seem to deliberately go for "controversial" subjects... but is that actually a criminal offence on HL? Why not talk about the stickier things - they're often the most interesting. The average age on here is about 98 or something , so I'd like to think we're mature and intelligent enough people to post about these things without it descending into flames.

(And I have to say that I think Motz deals with it remarkably well , especially for someone well below the average innings of a H-Lander. Always reasonable, well-thought out in his posts on "serious" topics, I've noticed. The rest of the time he's a gobshyte of course .
Now, let's all get offended at me making generalisations about a certain age group... )

There's a wonderful spirit of friendship and community on HL, but I don't know that the cessation (or failure to commence) of arse-licking and agreement on everything should mar that in any way. Nor should it lead to someone's exclusion from our loving family .

[Petseri]

I am heading to bed now (which has nothing to do with this thread) and prefer not logging on tomorrow to find a monster. If the other mods want to unlock it in the morning, I do not object, but for now I will lock it. It has not gone over the top any more than other threads, but I am sure that we all see from some of the posts how it could. Thank you for playing nicely.

[Quiff Boy]

Can we put this one to bed now.

with who ? A hairy truck driver ?

best post of the thread so far

and so in short:

weight of evidence would suggest that no, he is not. there have been women "around" the sisters camp several times during recent gigs, his continued friendship with ms shearsby (the claire)

would he care if we thought he was? i doubt it.

would it effect the tone or quality of his work if he were? who can say. did it change the nature of joe jackson's work? rob halford's?

i can't really see von "doing a tom robinson" and releasing a gay anthem, so i doubt it would have any effect whatsoever. his world view seems unrelated to his sexuality. his acid tongue would more than suited handling itself in any straight or gay culture oriented conversation

i can see how, for example, if a person's gender preference meant they were actively engaged in a "scene" or "alternative lifestyle" based on sexuality, it might shape his experiences and his reference points, and thus potentially effect the content or the tone of his lyrics, but as von doesn't live an openly gay lifestyle, or is not active on the leeds (or wherever) gay scene, i'd say that no, even if he were (and i don't believe he is) it wouldn't make difference to him as an artist, or his body of work.

and so does it matter really? no.... although taylor might not be quite such a fan if he were

[Quiff Boy]

i'll unlock this for now, to see if anyone has anything constructive to add, but as its a moot point i doubt the original question has any further relevance...