it's official, misery and self-loathing are a Goth thing

[wintermute]

in the spirit of the examination season:

BMJ 2006;332:1058-1061 (6 May)

Prevalence of deliberate self harm and attempted suicide within contemporary Goth youth subculture: longitudinal cohort study

Objective To investigate whether deliberate self harm is associated with contemporary Goth youth subculture.

Design Longitudinal cohort study.

Setting School and community based study of young people living in the Central Clydeside Conurbation, Scotland.

Participants 1258 people aged 19, surveyed in 2002-4 and followed-up since age 11 (1994).

Main outcome measures Lifetime prevalence of self harm and attempted suicide and their association with Goth youth subculture, before and after adjusting for confounders.

Results Identification as belonging to the Goth subculture was strongly associated with lifetime self harm and attempted suicide, with a prevalence of 53% and 47%, respectively among the most highly identified group, and evidence for a dose-response relation. Adjusting for potential confounders did not significantly attenuate this association. Analysis of other youth subcultures showed that this effect was primarily associated with Goth subculture.

Conclusions Identification as belonging to the Goth subculture was the best predictor of self harm and attempted suicide. Although based on small numbers, additional longitudinal analysis suggests both selection and modelling mechanisms are involved, selection mechanisms possibly being more likely.

discuss

[Dark]

We just need a drink, and a few doo-wop songs. That way we're safe from self-harm for a few years.

[aims]

Those who identify as being part of the goth culture probably aren't. Perhaps a "Gothic" thing?

Please give the name back to the 80's men in leather with fuzzy guitars

[Zuma]

Aye, perhaps they need to define "goth culture" before posing the question?

[wintermute]

apparently the subjects were offered a range of 'yoof' subcultures and asked how much they identified with each.

goth, punk, heavy metal, mosher, nu-metal, skater, grunge, retro, indie, rave, club, garage, hip-hop, pop, other

the authors offered

"Goth" could be described as a subgenre of punk with a dark and sinister aesthetic, with aficionados conspicuous by their range of distinctive clothing and makeup and tastes in music

goth (53%) way out ahead of garage and punk (~25%), others all under 20%, indie fans clearly total wusses (0.3%)

who says our tax money is being wasted by science

[wild bill buttock]

I think its important the area in which the survey was undertaken.
I had a mate who lived in Glasgow and got stabbed three times (Twice with Icicles!?!),simply for being a bit of a goth.
I would suggest they are attributing being stabbed because you dress in black and having long hair as being self harm;"Hoots mon it war my oon fault ah was dressed in black on a braw bricht moon lich nakt" etc

[spot778]

Considering these people were 11 in '94 doesn't give 'em too much validity IMHO. That's like saying Punk is Green Day et all not.

What was goth has changed into something far different than it was. It's now manufactured and pushed to the masses where by earlier you had to find it on your own.

It's not something I would judge somebody on but I see lots of people dressing and/or acting in various genres without doing the "history" on it so to speak.

[aims]

Considering these people were 11 in '94 doesn't give 'em too much validity IMHO. That's like saying Punk is Green Day et all not.

I was 6 in '94. They have no excuse

[wild bill buttock]

Are you saying Green day aren't punk?You'll be telling me muse aren't a goth band next

[markfiend]

Maybe there is something to it. While I don't think the prevalence of self-harm in the late 80's / early 90's goth "scene" was anywhere near as high as that study finds, I certainly was aware of more than one person who self-harmed.

[Badlander]

It reminds me of the book/movie High fidelity : "Do I listen to pop music because I'm miserable, or am I miserable because I listen to pop music ?"

[smiscandlon]

misery and self-loathing

living in the Central Clydeside Conurbation, Scotland

Coincidence?

[Dark]

Perhaps if any of the kids were Weegies, and they had stab marks, there was another explanation...

Mr Blast?

[smiscandlon]

Perhaps if any of the kids were Weegies, and they had stab marks, there was another explanation...

Mr Blast?

[_emma_]

If they identify themselves with goth subculture, it's obvious that they're suicidal etc. Goths in denial, on the other hand, are perfectly healthy people. I suppose.

[spot778]

I was 24 in '94

Green Day are as pop as they come. I'm not critizing the music or the band but I put 'em with U2 and others.

As for depressing well The Smiths, Depeche Mode and pretty much everything else I grew up listening to was depressing. Being a teenager sucks and you want company doesn't make 'em goth though

I look at Punk as an era not a label, much as I look at goth as an era not a label.

Again it's just MHO

[DarkAngel]

It is unfortunate but true - the youth who identify with the goth subculture tend to do so because of the extreme rejection they feel. Before I started my own business, I ran high school program for kids who were either depressive and/or aggressive and chose to be in my program because they felt they didn't fit in. What most affected these kids was that there was usually one parent who was unavailble emotionally or who openly rejected them. So, I not only worked with the kids, but their parents as well - if they would allow me to do so. All of my goths and punks were not accepted by the mainstream. I never had more than 12 kids in the room at a time - usually only 3 or 4 were goth or punk kids. The self-mutilators were always girls - although in my experience that group were neither goth nor punk.

[markfiend]

It is unfortunate but true - the youth who identify with the goth subculture tend to do so because of the extreme rejection they feel.

It may be true now to an extent, but that was definitely not my experience of the goth thing 15 years ago.

And anecdotally, I would say the situation probably still isn't the same here: mrs fiend used to run a high-school "gifted and talented" program; "goth" kids were way over-represented in her cohort, and colleagues who ran the same program at other schools reported the same thing.

*Edit to add: Come to think of it, the "rejection" could be peer-rejection, because of anti-intellectualism and the "let's pick on teacher's pet" mind-set.

[wild bill buttock]

a great many of us 80's goths self harmed.Including myself,mind you it was mainly brain damage caused by Special brew and scrumpy snakebites,Embassy number 1 and a couple of blokes called Charlie and Billy Wizz

[Badlander]

You can't seriously count suicide by booze, otherwise the stats will just go through the roof.

[wild bill buttock]

My uncle drowned himself in a barrel of Guinness.It took two days,he kept getting out for a p*ss!

Tell your friends,I'm here all week!


Nice sig btw Badlander,one of The Nephs finest moments

[Badlander]

Nice sig btw Badlander,one of The Nephs finest moments

Knew you'd be pleased.
And I was lucky enough to put my filthy hands on a live version very recently. I once had a friend who was a major Neph fan. He had tons of VHS (that was back then) but only one or two live versions of Wail of Sumer.

[spot778]

My uncle drowned himself in a barrel of Guinness.It took two days,he kept getting out for a p*ss!

LMAO !