Middle East conflict

[EvilBastard]

Sadly the Israeli military has also proved a dab hand at picking out specific ambulances and minivans full of women and kids and blowing the everloving doodie out of them. A less charitable person might suggest that this is what comes of reliance on American military technology.
The strike on the UN post is unlikely to be a mistake, I fear, given that they can shoot a gnat's nadgers off from 30000000 feet. Some trigger-happy squaddy probably figured he might as well p*ss *everyone* off while he was at it. I feel sorry for the women and kids in Haifa and the other Israeli towns that have been targeted by Hezbollah, but the differences in the scale of destruction is unbelievable. The casualty figures scream "disproportionate". 40-odd Israelis, half of whom were soldiers (and therefore legitimate targets - sorry, but if you take the shilling then you know what you're letting yourself in for), while 3000-some Lebanese of whom they reckon a couple of hundred at the outside are Hezbollah.
And all of this for two soldiers - is anyone making sense of this, and if so, can they explain it to me?

[sultan2075]

Sadly the Israeli military has also proved a dab hand at picking out specific ambulances and minivans full of women and kids and blowing the everloving doodie out of them. A less charitable person might suggest that this is what comes of reliance on American military technology.
The strike on the UN post is unlikely to be a mistake, I fear, given that they can shoot a gnat's nadgers off from 30000000 feet. Some trigger-happy squaddy probably figured he might as well p*ss *everyone* off while he was at it. I feel sorry for the women and kids in Haifa and the other Israeli towns that have been targeted by Hezbollah, but the differences in the scale of destruction is unbelievable. The casualty figures scream "disproportionate". 40-odd Israelis, half of whom were soldiers (and therefore legitimate targets - sorry, but if you take the shilling then you know what you're letting yourself in for), while 3000-some Lebanese of whom they reckon a couple of hundred at the outside are Hezbollah.
And all of this for two soldiers - is anyone making sense of this, and if so, can they explain it to me?

Firstly, there is an unfortunate tendency for Westerners to think that military operations can be undertaken with godlike accuracy; this is simply not the case. Secondly, there have been reports of Hezbollah activity in the area of the observation post--they do have a long history of a) blending in with civilian populations b) placing their installations near those of the UN observer forces on the Lebanese border in order to decrease the liklihood of attack, and c) employing Red Crescent ambulances as a means of transporting equipment and people. In fact, on the alleged UN attack, let's let the UN speak for itsef: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf

Here's the third paragraph:
Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Bras-hit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops. (please note that I have added a dash to Bras-hit so that the name will display)

Hezbollah, then, is firing from positions very close to UN positions. This is standard operating procedure for them, as they know that the Israelis will be reluctant to strike back at such positions. But reluctant doesn't mean they won't

Your theory about a 'trigger happy squaddy' doesn't hold water, in part because the sort of gun needed for this kind of thing takes more than one or two people in the crew. On top of that, gunnery crews are often given coordinates, and rarely do they know 'Oh, that's a UN post'--these weapons are loaded and fired outside of visual range of the target, sometimes up to ten miles. Heavy artillery and all that...

Thus, the other alternative your theory presents would be that the Israeli military itself gave orders to strike the UN observers. How would that possibly aid Israel in attaining their military goal, the elimination of Hezbollah as a threat? If anything, it would make such a goal more difficult to attain.

If you want anecdotal evidence, I caught a clip on the radio from an interview today with Canadian General General Lewis Mackenzie, who had recently spoken with the Canadian stationed there. He commented that the soldier stationed there had said the increasingly close Israeli strikes were a 'tactical necessity.' Why? Because Hezbollah forces were using the position for cover.

As for why Israel is doing this, it's quite simple: the nascent Lebanese government is unable to project force into the southern end of Lebanon, thus Hizbollah has been able to metastasize as a military threat there; Israel sees Hezbollah as an existential threat. The failure of the new Lebanese government to keep Hizbollah in check has culminated with Israel deciding that they must do it themselves--as recent events have proved, Hizbollah has a) been stockpiling weapons and b) has openly hostile intentions toward the state of Israel (i.e. the kidnappings and daily cross-border rocket attacks that have been going on for years). The Israeli government decided that they could no longer maintain the status quo, Hezbollah provoked them, and they are using the opportunity to try to eliminate Hezbollah as a military force. As for the kidnapping itself, that strikes home with many of the Israelis because all Israeli citizens are required to serve in the military at some point.

Facts. Sexy sexy facts.

[Ocean Moves]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212448.stm

[canon docre]

In my book - regardless of the details in this specific case - everything that stops the cancer that is the extreme islamic fundamentalism is a good thing in the long run.

[markfiend]

In my book - regardless of the details in this specific case - everything that stops the cancer that is the extreme islamic fundamentalism is a good thing in the long run.

But will this stop Islamic fundamentalism, or even harm it?

In the short term Israel might curtail Hezbollah's ability to launch missile attacks against Israel, but...

I expect this conflict to further radicalize muslims and isreali.

I agree with eotunun. The civilian casualties are acting as a recruitment drive for Hezbollah.

[eotunun]

...up to ten miles.

Say more than 20 and it is still right.. The contemporary generation of artilery tanks will even fire four shots at various angle and with varying charges of explosives so that they will hit the target synchronously. Ths trick works for ranges of ten miles and more.
Without a doubt the Isreali will have tanks that are able to do tricks like these, I guess.

I think the ultraconservatist myths can only grow where the age of enlightenment hasn´t been heard of and some kind of a Rock´n´Roll-like youth rebellion is impossible. Take the german APO of the late sixtees as an example, whose initial inspiration was to demask all former nazis that were prospering in the early years of the FRG after having comitted war crimes of the worst kind. (Which unfortunately ended in colaboration with the Fatah as a terrorist movement in shape of the RAF (Red Army Fraction)...)

[canon docre]

In my book - regardless of the details in this specific case - everything that stops the cancer that is the extreme islamic fundamentalism is a good thing in the long run.

But will this stop Islamic fundamentalism, or even harm it?

In the short term Israel might curtail Hezbollah's ability to launch missile attacks against Israel, but...

I expect this conflict to further radicalize muslims and isreali.

I agree with eotunun. The civilian casualties are acting as a recruitment drive for Hezbollah.

Sad but true. The Iraq war was just a trigger for worser things in that region and so are the actual bombings.

But what in three devils names could stop the extreme Islamism from spreading their disease?

The one who knows the answer gets the International Jessie Peace Award.

[Dark]

Some iced coffee and a copy of The Beach Boys' "20 Golden Greats". If that doesn't help calm things down a little, nothing will.

[markfiend]

If you compare the rabid Islamism that's currently spreading in the Arab world with the rabid "Christianism" that swept across Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire through the Dark Ages to the Mediaeval period, I suspect that what's needed is some analogue of the Protestant Reformation. We need a Muslim version of Martin Luther

[ruffers]

More from the bbc -

"Israel says diplomats' decision not to call for a halt to its Lebanon offensive at a Middle East summit has given it the green light to continue.
"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," Justice Minister Haim Ramon said. "


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 219360.stm


Well done world.

[Badlander]

But what in three devils names could stop the extreme Islamism from spreading their disease?

The one who knows the answer gets the International Jessie Peace Award.

Well that's not enough but I guess that's part of the answer : for the time being Islamism is a religion with very little structure, unlike Christianism or Judaism. It doesn't have a church, it doesn't have a clergy, it doesn't really have a dogma. There's nothing even close to the Pope in Islamism, no cardinal, bishop... In Christianism, the interpretation of the Bible is considered a science in itself, and so there is official interpretation and heresy. In Islamism there is no official interpretation of the Coran : you're not supposed to interpret the Coran, as it's an integral part of God. You just swallow it. Which means in reality that all interpretations are equally valid since no one can say your interpretation is wrong. Which leaves the door open to all kind of extremism. The Christian system, on the other hand, has a tendency to encourage some kind of middle-of-the-road conservatism : nothing too radical, nothing too conservative.
IIRC Islamism officially outlawed interpretation of the Coran at some point around the 14th century, that is very early in its history. So there's no straight answer but I guess that's a start.

[euphoria]

But what in three devils names could stop the extreme Islamism from spreading their disease?

The one who knows the answer gets the International Jessie Peace Award.

There are mainly two non-religious reasons for arab muslims to hate the Western world, AFAIK.

1) The military support to Israel from USA and morally from many other Western states (try to find -one- arab on this planet who talks good of Israel). Every square inch of that land is considered stolen.

and 2) the feeling that they, except maybe Libya (who to my knowledge are in 100% control of their resources), are being valued by their oil resources and nothing else. Saudi Arabia has a completely f**ked-up ultra-conservative regime (far worse than Syria for example) that nevertheless has good relations to the USA, i.e. it is clear that the US and other western states have no -real- interest in arab democracy, unless it suits them economically.

Hezbollah, the Iranian government, al-Qaida and a few others are surely driven by religious motives/hate, but I am 100% convinced they would NOT get popular support of any strength weren't it for the above mentioned reasons.

Sadly, it has to start with the US being tougher on Israel, and that won't happen in the foreseeable future

[jay]

I may have posted this already. Provides a non media view of current activities...
http://www.bloggingbeirut.com/

[eotunun]

Sadly, it has to start with the US being tougher on Israel

wich has to go hand in hand with Iran and Syria stopping their threats against Israel and supporting terrorists, which is not very likely to happen.

But what in three devils names could stop the extreme Islamism from spreading their disease?

The one who knows the answer gets the International Jessie Peace Award.

I apply with my suggestion of a non-religious cultural revolution for the muslim countries. Make them Ding-a-ding dang their dang-a-long linglongs.
Make the young ones see that a Jesus may be a devil, too. Remind them that there is a life before death, too. Help them realize that their lifes are too precious to be wasted on battlefields.
Make them understand that good may be bad. This conflict can only be sorted out by words. and it will take a lot of time and patience.
A peacefull rebellion. Free thinking. The Ahmadinejads are affraid of that.

P.S.: 72 virgins and green meadows are what a jihadi gets on the other side. That means 72 unexperienced chiquas, and no mention of a lawn mower.
Not to talk about 72 mothers in law..

[Badlander]

Remind them that there is a life before death, too. Help them realize that their lifes are too precious to be wasted on battlefields.

Quite funny too, but hey, it's old stuff.

Bruce Springsteen once said whilst on stage : "I can't promise life after death, but I can promise you life right now !"

[canon docre]

just three things could change it to the better:

education (to get better jobs)
education (to question your leaders)
education to start free thinking

[markfiend]

just three things could change it to the better:

education (to get better jobs)
education (to question your leaders)
education to start free thinking

It's bizarre isn't it? When Europe was going through the Middle Ages, with only the monks in the monasteries having any kind of education, the Islamic world was in a cultural and intellectual high. Now...

[eotunun]

just three things could change it to the better:

education (to get better jobs)
education (to question your leaders)
education to start free thinking

It's bizarre isn't it? When Europe was going through the Middle Ages, with only the monks in the monasteries having any kind of education, the Islamic world was in a cultural and intellectual high. Now...

To both of you: Indeed!
While it doesn`t need a lot of education to notice the leaks in biblic stories, like "Where did the wifes of Cain and Abel come from?" And I guess the kids are told more than enough of this kind of stories..

Edit: On a second thought, cd, it has to be independant education. Otherwise it will more likely be used to spread a distinct agenda, like "Kill all infidels!"
but, roughly speaking, we agree..

[Jaimie1980]

In my book - regardless of the details in this specific case - everything that stops the cancer that is the extreme islamic fundamentalism is a good thing in the long run.

But will this stop Islamic fundamentalism, or even harm it?

In the short term Israel might curtail Hezbollah's ability to launch missile attacks against Israel, but...

I expect this conflict to further radicalize muslims and isreali.

I agree with eotunun. The civilian casualties are acting as a recruitment drive for Hezbollah.

I think the Israeli approach to the problem is only likely to encourage fundamentalism and hostility to Israel on a great scale. Israel's actions in Lebanon can only endanger it's future and destroy Lebanon in the process. Meanwhile the US and Britian seem content to allow this to continue.

[Ocean Moves]

From BBC News:

In contrast to many previous bouts of violence, there has been an extraordinary lack of US restraint on the Israelis, who have this time pursued a course more violent than anything they have unleashed on Lebanon before.

Washington has said nothing as Israeli jets have blasted targets from Beirut international airport to roads, bridges, factories, petrol stations and other non-military targets all over Lebanon, in addition to strikes on civilian areas and vehicles which have taken a heavy toll of life.

The US is caught in a contradiction here. It is committed to the elected, mainly anti-Syrian government headed by Fuad Siniora, who is being visibly weakened daily by the onslaught on non-Hezbollah economic and infrastructural targets.

So that is a tactic that may have already largely run its course and will be increasingly hard to pursue, with rising international concern over the militarily irrelevant damage and casualties it has inflicted, apart from the fact that it is not working.

It is akin to the tactics adopted by Israel in the Palestinian arena, urging Yasser Arafat and later Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to crack down on Hamas and other radical groups, while simultaneously destroying their ability to do so. The result was Hamas' ascendancy.