An Unlikely Alliance

[Silver_Owl]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6261885.stm

[DeWinter]

Well, no more unlikely than France becoming the junior partner of the German's in the European Project, I suppose. Or the Scottish of the English (or vice versa currently) in Great Britain.

[eotunun]

Omit that "junior", mister Winter..
Some german politicians will be glad if somebody will buy this indebted bunch of principalities Krautheim is today.
With our rapidly deteriorating social system, the health costs exploding despite us paying more and more of the bills ourselves (The first time I couldn´t afford the sufficient treatment of a health problem was 8 years ago now..) we will, as I think, once again be the first of Europe.
..At the edge of the cliff, that is. And the first to go over it.

[King of Byblos]

Well, no more unlikely than France becoming the junior partner of the German's in the European Project, I suppose. Or the Scottish of the English (or vice versa currently) in Great Britain.

which is pretty much what happened anyway...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ommunities
could have been fun though...how many UCAS points would you have needed for the Sorbonne?

[DeWinter]

eotunun:
I'll omit it if you like! But it doesn't seem to me unfair to say that France is the junior partner in it's alliance with Germany.
Simple way for Germany to solve it's problems would be to return to the deutschemark and set it's own interest rates. The German public never wanted the Euro anyway.
I did find the idea fun, though. French youth could still come to London and get a job, moneyed English could still buy up the South of France, the French could introduce us to the art of dressing, we could instruct them on hygiene..

[Badlander]

French youth could still come to London and get a job, moneyed English could still buy up the South of France, the French could introduce us to the art of dressing, we could instruct them on hygiene..

Enough with national stereotypes please.
Even though I must admit it is much easier to get a job in the UK when you're young and inexperienced.

[eotunun]

eotunun:
I'll omit it if you like! But it doesn't seem to me unfair to say that France is the junior partner in it's alliance with Germany.
Simple way for Germany to solve it's problems would be to return to the deutschemark and set it's own interest rates. The German public never wanted the Euro anyway.

It might be interesting for the record: At the moment the €uro is the only factor that prevents the german economy from a degression if not collapse.
80% of the german income are made with export of which 80% stay in the EU.
Without the stability the €uro brings there might be substantially less.. Even probably so. It probably spared us an unpleasant crisis.
Without the EU, the reunion would probably have ruined us.

[nowayjose]

It might be interesting for the record: At the moment the €uro is the only factor that prevents the german economy from a degression if not collapse.

Care to explain this rather peculiar assertion?

[eotunun]

It might be interesting for the record: At the moment the €uro is the only factor that prevents the german economy from a degression if not collapse.

Care to explain this rather peculiar assertion?

Based on numbers given by Statstisches Bundesamt, official statistics.
Can´t point you to a site unfortuntely, I have these numbers from a TV magazine.
The numbers, then, speak for themselves, I´d say.

[timsinister]

I've read a few things that imply Reunification is actually costing the former West German government a considerable amount! canon_docre, any knowledge...?

I'd agree with the French sources in that article; the idea of the French nation willingly becoming a vassal of the old Empire is mind-boggling. That was then...

What about now? We're all slowly starting to see that a merger is infact a safe course of action, especially vis-a-vis America's international buying might. Could a proper European alliance be on the cards? I've always agreed with our Paramount Leader's view that a United Federal Europe was the path to success...

[Badlander]

Countries, states and even nations are historical constructions anyway. They haven't always been and won't always be there. So I don't see why something bigger than the currently existing European nation-states couldn't come into being. How about the United States of Europe ?
And when we discover hyperspace and start actual space exploration, it'll be time to establish a world government and join the Federation of planets.

[eotunun]

I've read a few things that imply Reunification is actually costing the former West German government a considerable amount! canon_docre, any knowledge...?

Allmost all streets in the former GDR needed refinishing, a lot of motorways got built/expanded, the infrastructure of comunications needed an update, state owned companies were privatised with official subsidies (which weren´t linked to the condition that the money would be used to rebuild/modernize the companies themselves. Most prominent example was the Vulkan Werft Rostock, where 358 million Euro were used to brush up an allmost bankrupt west german dockyard. Quite a bit of that money was invested in South Korean dockyards..). Next, the eastern german economy didn´t start to grow as fast as the wishfull thinking of the government then expected, resulting in surprisingly high rates of unemployment, which became very expensive. In some regions, especially the north east, unemployment rates were over (and still are near) 20%. Those are, by the way, the domains of the neonazi parties that we have to deal with today.
..substituting Jess, who probably has better things to do these days...

What about now? We're all slowly starting to see that a merger is infact a safe course of action, especially vis-a-vis America's international buying might. Could a proper European alliance be on the cards? I've always agreed with our Paramount Leader's view that a United Federal Europe was the path to success...

That´s what I think. An american economist lately said he expected Europe to become the driving force in developement of new energy technologies, for the simple reason that the resources available here are not sufficient for the demand, and the dependency on foreign recources poses too much of a threat to the economy. (see last week´s blocking of the russian oil pipeline to germany by Belarus..)

[DeWinter]

United States of Europe? Well, the tendency these days is for countries to split, rather than unify. Give it ten years, and the chances are we'll be seeing an independent England, Scotland, Catalonia, and Flemish nation.

So, heres a scenario:

Without their Scots and Welsh M.P's, Labour find themselves almost permanently on the opposition bench in England. The Tory party under pressure by it's own Eurosceptic wing and the threat of defections to the Independence Party(the former UKIP), and the growing strength of the BNP, finally offers a referendum on EU-withdrawal. The English, who have been slowly drifting to the right politically, the most sceptical as to the EU's worth, vote to withdraw.
England's withdrawal means Scotland finds itself unable to transport it's goods through England without paying a tariff, and the English put up border controls to ensure EU members from poorer countries don't enter England illegally through Scotland, all this costing Scotland billions through lost trade.
Spain, vetoes Catalonia's application to join the EU as well as continuing it's current unofficial boycott of Catalan goods. Without the wealthy Catalan area, and a resurgent campaign by the ETA, Spain finds it's economy in dire straights, yet the EU, without the 13 billion provided by the former UK, is unable to find funds for Spain's assistance. Spain finds itself breaking the stability pact, and is fined by the EU, It responds by dropping the Euro.
The Euro goes into freefall.
You can guess the rest. You might even think I wanted it to happen I've thought it through so thoroughly. I don't, but it'd serve the EU well for trying to carve my country up and abolish it's name..

[itnAklipse]

Just as a side-note:
i would expect an american economist to say whatever suits their purpose...and their prophecies have usually something of a self-fulfilling nature. It's not because they are great visionaries, but because these developments are decided years in advance and take years to carry through, and economists getting space in WSJ or Newsweek are in on it.

[eotunun]

United States of Europe? Well, the tendency these days is for countries to split, rather than unify. Give it ten years, and the chances are we'll be seeing an independent England, Scotland, Catalonia, and Flemish nation.

So, heres a scenario:

Without their Scots and Welsh M.P's, Labour find themselves almost permanently on the opposition bench in England. The Tory party under pressure by it's own Eurosceptic wing and the threat of defections to the Independence Party(the former UKIP), and the growing strength of the BNP, finally offers a referendum on EU-withdrawal. The English, who have been slowly drifting to the right politically, the most sceptical as to the EU's worth, vote to withdraw.
England's withdrawal means Scotland finds itself unable to transport it's goods through England without paying a tariff, and the English put up border controls to ensure EU members from poorer countries don't enter England illegally through Scotland, all this costing Scotland billions through lost trade.
Spain, vetoes Catalonia's application to join the EU as well as continuing it's current unofficial boycott of Catalan goods. Without the wealthy Catalan area, and a resurgent campaign by the ETA, Spain finds it's economy in dire straights, yet the EU, without the 13 billion provided by the former UK, is unable to find funds for Spain's assistance. Spain finds itself breaking the stability pact, and is fined by the EU, It responds by dropping the Euro.
The Euro goes into freefall.
You can guess the rest. You might even think I wanted it to happen I've thought it through so thoroughly. I don't, but it'd serve the EU well for trying to carve my country up and abolish it's name..

I strongly doubt your sceptitcal vision. After all we know how much influence the lobbies have on the individual governments. And Europe without borders is the dream of many (you may possibly even say all) companies. Actually, you may think of it as an economical necessarity for european companies as a whole, as none of them will be able to compete with the prices at which asians can offer their products.
India has only just begun it´s economical growth, China will become a giant (if the environmental standards will improve there, that is. If not I fear we will see one of mankinds sadest catastrophies comming up..) next to which all others will be dwarfes. Even the US of A. And they won´t like it, but there is not much they can do about it.
And just imagine what may happen if there will be enough of political stability at african countries so that they develope their economical power..
I hope and pray for that, I dearly wish them a better future.

Oh, and itnAklipse: If it helps you doing as your signature says, try to ignore that an american economist said that. For it makes sense.
Sorry for the nudge, I couldn´t resist..

[markfiend]

So, heres a scenario:

Without their Scots and Welsh M.P's, Labour find themselves almost permanently on the opposition bench in England. The Tory party under pressure by it's own Eurosceptic wing and the threat of defections to the Independence Party(the former UKIP), and the growing strength of the BNP, finally offers a referendum on EU-withdrawal. The English, who have been slowly drifting to the right politically, the most sceptical as to the EU's worth, vote to withdraw.

Blimey. If that happens, I'll join you on the mainland...

You can guess the rest. You might even think I wanted it to happen I've thought it through so thoroughly. I don't, but it'd serve the EU well for trying to carve my country up and abolish it's name..

Your country?

[DeWinter]

eotunun:
Well, the Catalan one, maybe. I've only based that on what I've read, the part about the boycotting of Catalan goods by the Spanish public is quite true. And you have to assume that if the Catalan region broke away, the Basque seperatists would do everything they could to capitalise.
Oh, as for Africa, they might do a bit better if the EU didn't subsidise it's farmers and dump cheap produce in Africa, ensuring it's own farmers can't compete..
markfiend:
It's possible, in fact I'd say it's almost a certainty if the UK does split up. The Tory party right now are beginning to worry that the UKIP will appeal to enough Tories to cost them marginal seats, so they may well decide to cut them off at the root by offering a referendum. As for the BNP, judging by the amount of support they are getting (they are the official opposition on some councils) if they field candidates in every constituency in England some say they could get about seven percent of the whole UK vote. Take away Scotland/Wales/Ulster and they'd have 10/11 percent of the English vote.

[nowayjose]

I've read a few things that imply Reunification is actually costing the former West German government a considerable amount!

Just a number: in 2004, the cost of German reunification so far had been estimated at around 1.5 trillion Euros.

(Reference: Article from the German FAZ newspaper, http://tinyurl.com/nyhoe, 1 Billion (German) = 1 trillion (English)).

[King of Byblos]

if they field candidates in every constituency in England some say they could get about seven percent of the whole UK vote. Take away Scotland/Wales/Ulster and they'd have 10/11 percent of the English vote.

but the UK does not have Proportional Representation so 10% of the Uk vote doesn't necessarily translate into representation in Westminster, Cardiff or Edinburgh.

[markfiend]

1 Billion (German) = 1 billion (US English (and increasingly UK English)) = 1 thousand million

Properly, a billion is a million million, but I'm fighting a losing battle to a thousand million on that usage.

[markfiend]

they [BNP] are the official opposition on some councils

While this may be true, (I know of at least one London council -- Barking and Dagenham -- where the BNP is the second largest party) I also understand that the BNP councillors elected have some of the worst attendance records in the country. I may be wrong but I think at least one BNP councillor has yet to turn up at a council meeting since being elected...

... in May 2006.

[DeWinter]

they [BNP] are the official opposition on some councils

While this may be true, (I know of at least one London council -- Barking and Dagenham -- where the BNP is the second largest party) I also understand that the BNP councillors elected have some of the worst attendance records in the country. I may be wrong but I think at least one BNP councillor has yet to turn up at a council meeting since being elected...

... in May 2006.

Its quite likely, according to them they are treated as pariahs in council meetings so don't bother turning up, but in truth they usually show pretty shocking levels of ignorance when challenged to any public debate. I suppose they've decided to let Griffin do the talking for them, and he's worryingly plausible.
King of Byblos:
No, but 10% of the public vote would still be a huge thing. The Lib Dems are only on something like 15 right now from about 22.
In a way, I hope it happens, as the three main political parties in the UK desperately need a kick in the pants right now, and maybe something like this will do it for them.

This has got a little too serious for a post about a mildly amusing idea fifty years ago, hasn't it?

[King of Byblos]

1 Billion (German) = 1 billion (US English (and increasingly UK English)) = 1 thousand million

Properly, a billion is a million million, but I'm fighting a losing battle to a thousand million on that usage.

i'm with you on that one

[markfiend]

1 Billion (German) = 1 billion (US English (and increasingly UK English)) = 1 thousand million

Properly, a billion is a million million, but I'm fighting a losing battle to a thousand million on that usage.

i'm with you on that one

[nowayjose]

1 Billion (German) = 1 billion (US English (and increasingly UK English)) = 1 thousand million

Nope, in German, 1 Billion is 1 million million (10^12), 1000 million (10^9) would be "Milliarde". The German system goes like, Million (10^6) - Milliarde (10^9) - Billion (10^12) - Billiarde (10^15) - Trillion (10^18 ) - Trilliarde (10^21) - etc., like in ("old-fashioned") UK English (million/milliard). In US English, or in an international English context, the -iards are omitted, and instead each factor of 1000 adds another -illion (million - billion - trillion - ...)

Properly, a billion is a million million, but I'm fighting a losing battle to a thousand million on that usage.

Yes, that's true... confusing, isn't it...