Vista vs XP, Mac & Linux?

[Spigel]

I have one of these

[eotunun]

..apparently you have two of them.


Oh, er: For the traditionalists!

(I wonder if one could set up a desktop that shows no icons or toolbars and stuff, just the background picture. If that desktop would allow .gif backgrounds, that would be a top joke! XFCE should allow such a gag.. )

[EvilBastard]

Flash git - there are those of us who are still using these...



but it's a bugger to find anything that will run on 1K these days...

[mh]

Flash git - there are those of us who are still using these...



but it's a bugger to find anything that will run on 1K these days...

10 PRINT "HELLO"
20 GOTO 10

Is about all I can think of.

I must say though, Microsoft do a good server OS. Windows Server 2003 is streets ahead of both XP and Vista, even for general desktop use. Pity about the price though.

[nowayjose]

In summary, would I be right in thinking that all Mac compatible software is copyright, whilst Linux apps are free to all and can be openly shared anywhere - here on Heartland for example?!

All software is copyrighted (well, depending on the country you live in and the laws there), and the generalization that software that runs on a Mac can't be copied, and software that runs on Linux can is wrong, too, evidenced by the simple fact, that you can build many Linux programs on a Mac, since MacOS X is based on FreeBSD, which is very similar to Linux in that regard (unlike Windows).
There is also commercial software for Linux that can't be copied freely (but not much for the enduser since Linux users generally abhor proprietary software) and there's a lot freeware and free software for Mac and Windows, so the choice of system is very much about a cultural statement regarding free/proprietary software but has no legal consequences for the software that can be run on it.

As for sharing on the web such as Heartland, you don't usually do that, since the Linux distributor (Debian, Redhat, Ubuntu, etc.) has already packaged many thousands of software packages which are ready to be installed from within the system. There's no need to hunt them down on the web or copy them to someone else. You select the packages you want to install, and the system will download them from the repository sites, and any packages they depend on. The programs which aren't in the package repositories, or of which you need newer versions or so, you can download the source code and compile/install for yourself.

[markfiend]

For what it's worth, I did have dual-boot Ubuntu / Mac OSX running on this Mac powerbook for a while, but I found I was hardly ever using the Ubuntu partition, so I'm just running OSX again.

But yeah, you can build almost anything open-source that runs on Linux to run on OSX from the source code; you can't run Photoshop (very easily) on Linux.

[reactiv8]

For what it's worth, I did have dual-boot Ubuntu / Mac OSX running on this Mac powerbook for a while, but I found I was hardly ever using the Ubuntu partition, so I'm just running OSX again.

But yeah, you can build almost anything open-source that runs on Linux to run on OSX from the source code; you can't run Photoshop (very easily) on Linux.

Ooh, this sounds interesting! - If I could have Photoshop running under Linux (possibly alongside OSX) I would be a happy bunny! - I don't suppose Adobe would be very happy about this though?! All you graphic designer types must wonder what I am on about here (don't answer that ...), but for some of us all of this is a vital conundrum to consider well - making the wrong decision could mean being stuck with Windows for another decade, and having to buy/adapt the software I need (Eek!) ... I'm always surprised that Apple and Linux supporters don't make the transition easier for Luddites like me - I suppose they enjoy watching us fumble about? - or something ... Incidentally, has anyone gathered statistics for the movement of users between operating systems in the last decade? - I would guess that the shift is virtually one-way, away from Microsoft? Will they have any customers left by 2020? Do we care? I notice that they are trying to force new hardware buyers into going with Vista now - The Currys group will not honour the warranty of systems re-loaded with anything other than Vista! - A very unsubtle tactic! Meanwhile, I watch the price of the new hardware tumble, as users stick with XP (or older) or move over to OSX and/or Linux! - Aldi for example can't shift new desktop towers for £400 that they were trying to flog for £600 before Xmas ...

If I can afford it, would it be sensible to acquire some second-hand desktops to experiment with OSX & Linux? Is is feasible to load them onto hardware previously running Windows? - I have always wondered why Mac and Linux fans don't cannibalise other hardware? - Surely this makes economic sense? Of course Mac design, aesthetics and ergonomics is way ahead of the others, but for paupers like me, a system that runs fast and well is more important than how it looks on my desk! ... An ideal system for yours truly would be open source of course, supporting basic word processing, digital darkroom, zoombrowser, photoshop and pagemaker or equivalent, and a media player too ... Yeah, I'm sure that some of you already have all of this and more and watch peasants like me flailing about with much amusement?

Also, Quiffy mentioned that he writes his own 'macros' (this is what I would call them) to run in OSX for often repeated tasks - do you people share these amongst yourselves? Or, are they so easy to write that you knock 'em out as and when needed? Ditto 'macros' in Linux ... ? Presumably Microsoft users are blissfully ignorant of the useful trading and sharing that you lucky ones indulge in? We're waking up though ...

Without boring y'all too much, you must know that a 'hands-on' approach to managing one's applications, whilst it is logical and sensible is most definitely not encouraged by Microsoft? Media Analysts and Futures Brokers must take an interest in all of this though? For example, are Google 'sitting on the fence'? Will there be a quantum leap to the next generation of IT? Any news of Microsoft's attempted takeover of Yahoo? What will their next move be I wonder? - Perhaps they will 'diversify' and buy Rio Tinto/British Telecom/Welsh Water/MK Dons/Northern Wreck (maybe not!) ...

As always, thank you Quiffy, mh, nowayjose, markfiend, evilbastard, eotunun et all - your wise words are much appreciated! One of these days I really will put all of this knowledge to use, but probably you lot will have 'moved on' by then! ...

[Quiff Boy]

a couple of corrections there:

1) os x only runs on apple "approved" hardware (read: a mac)

you cant install it on any old bits of hardware...

well, you kinda can, but not very well and only on a narrow range of hardware. google 'hackintosh' if you're feeling brave

2) there isnt a linux version of photoshop

there's something called 'gimp' which is similar, and free, but its a looooong way from being photoshop

3) if you want something to run a typical suite of apps on, with a low hardware spec, linux is the best bet as os x is a) only able to run on a mac and b) quite resource hungry (but unlike vista it uses those resources very well)

[reactiv8]

a couple of corrections there:

1) os x only runs on apple "approved" hardware (read: a mac)

you cant install it on any old bits of hardware...

well, you kinda can, but not very well and only on a narrow range of hardware. google 'hackintosh' if you're feeling brave

2) there isnt a linux version of photoshop

there's something called 'gimp' which is similar, and free, but its a looooong way from being photoshop

3) if you want something to run a typical suite of apps on, with a low hardware spec, linux is the best bet as os x is a) only able to run on a mac and b) quite resource hungry (but unlike vista it uses those resources very well)

I'm learning! - but I still don't get why OSX will only run on a Mac (bodgers of the world unite?) ... So Gimp needs to catch up with Photoshop?! - Will this ever happen?!?

[Quiff Boy]

it comes down to the way the apple and the MAC came about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh

Production of the Mac is based on a vertical integration model in that Apple facilitates all aspects of its hardware and creates its own operating system that is pre-installed on all Macs. Apple exclusively produces Mac hardware, choosing internal systems, designs, and prices. Apple does use third party components, however; current Macintosh CPUs use Intel's x86 architecture (formerly the AIM alliance's PowerPC and originally Motorola's 68k). Apple also develops the operating system for Macs, currently Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard". This is in contrast to most IBM compatible PCs, where multiple vendors create hardware intended to run another company's software. The modern Mac, like other personal computers, is capable of running alternative operating systems such as Linux, FreeBSD, and Microsoft Windows, which is considered to be the Mac's biggest competitor.

etc

a closed architecture with a known set of components is easier, faster and more stable than something that can be assembled from all manner of odds and ends in someone's garage.

i assume their OS is designed to work on a known set of components, thus the need to stuff the installation media full of (inevitably out of date) drivers is no longer an issue.

i have no idea about the roadmap for gimp development - i've never really used it... this might have useful info, though? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMP

[eotunun]

You can get The Gimp for Windoze as well.
Clink
It's as free as for Linux.
And I have to add that I am a bit saddened about the security levels of my Linux, as lately, after a longish ICQ talk to abroad my browser got slightly hijacked. I had several more malfunctions lately (Browsers shutting down spontaneously, the update server not available, downloads of updates dying..) . That may have to do with a person who calls itself an experienced hacker having been on my ICQ list, thus able to see my IP for longer periods.. Trust withdrawn, removed from list, measures taken. And I finally ordered that big Linux book. This OS requires some knowlege, lots of which I yet have to aquire. I will stick with it, though, as I trust Windows even less.

[nowayjose]

I have always wondered why Mac and Linux fans don't cannibalise other hardware?

What do you mean by that? Linux runs on a dozen or so different architectures (different CPU+hardware combinations), and NetBSD, another free Unix-like OS, runs the same release on over 50(!) different architectures and is the most portable system in the world. Certainly there is no dearth of system choices when you find some old hardware in the junk container.
MacOS is a different thing, for obvious (nontechnical) reasons.

[reactiv8]

I have always wondered why Mac and Linux fans don't cannibalise other hardware?

What do you mean by that? Linux runs on a dozen or so different architectures (different CPU+hardware combinations), and NetBSD, another free Unix-like OS, runs the same release on over 50(!) different architectures and is the most portable system in the world. Certainly there is no dearth of system choices when you find some old hardware in the junk container.
MacOS is a different thing, for obvious (nontechnical) reasons.

Phew - Better: 'Hush My Mouth', eh?

- mostly cows & sheep where I live - They don't know much about IT ...

[nowayjose]

- mostly cows & sheep where I live - They don't know much about IT ...

You're a lucky man...

Sometimes, ignorance _is_ bliss.

[reactiv8]

- mostly cows & sheep where I live - They don't know much about IT ...

You're a lucky man...

Sometimes, ignorance _is_ bliss.

- until the truck arrives to take them to the abattoir eh?

Thanks anyway for your thoughts re: the topic - it gives me much to cogitate on and who knows, one day I might even put into practice some of this wise advice?! I still reckon Vista will ultimately flop and make unhappy Windoze users flock to Mac & Linux! The sooner the better, eh?

[nowayjose]

Sometimes, ignorance _is_ bliss.

- until the truck arrives to take them to the abattoir eh?

It comes for all of us.. the difference is, whether you're locked in facing upwards, watching the blade falling down in S L O W M O T I O N.

[reactiv8]

Sometimes, ignorance _is_ bliss.

- until the truck arrives to take them to the abattoir eh?

It comes for all of us.. the difference is, whether you're locked in facing upwards, watching the blade falling down in S L O W M O T I O N.

Totally, and most of spend our lives trying to deny it ... Eek

Quick Motion sounds preferable to me - like a motorcycle accident, or overdose perhaps?! - Enough of this eh?

[reactiv8]

os x only runs on apple "approved" hardware (read: a mac)

you cant install it on any old bits of hardware...

well, you kinda can, but not very well and only on a narrow range of hardware. google 'hackintosh' if you're feeling brave

Back again! (Oh no, I hear them groan!) - responding to this point 'Your Esteemed Quiffness' (?!) (I have read, and attempted to 'digest' your other comments too, rest assured ...) With a little more research, it sounds to me like a Mac Mini is perhaps the way forward for my own inept fumblings, and is perhaps why Apple introduced this little baby in the first place?! - All I need now is to find one in good nick at a sensible price on ebay (oh and another monitor too of course!) ... So, anyone out there currently using a Mac Mini? Any good? Or is it frustratingly too small and slow? ... Any takers running a 'Hackintosh' too?! This thingy sounds like a real hot rod? - i.e. great when it runs, but a pain in the proverbial when it doesn't! ...

Thanks peeps!

[sultan2075]

os x only runs on apple "approved" hardware (read: a mac)

you cant install it on any old bits of hardware...

well, you kinda can, but not very well and only on a narrow range of hardware. google 'hackintosh' if you're feeling brave

Back again! (Oh no, I hear them groan!) - responding to this point 'Your Esteemed Quiffness' (?!) (I have read, and attempted to 'digest' your other comments too, rest assured ...) With a little more research, it sounds to me like a Mac Mini is perhaps the way forward for my own inept fumblings, and is perhaps why Apple introduced this little baby in the first place?! - All I need now is to find one in good nick at a sensible price on ebay (oh and another monitor too of course!) ... So, anyone out there currently using a Mac Mini? Any good? Or is it frustratingly too small and slow? ... Any takers running a 'Hackintosh' too?! This thingy sounds like a real hot rod? - i.e. great when it runs, but a pain in the proverbial when it doesn't! ...

Thanks peeps!

Honestly, the Mini tends to be a little underpowered for the price, though you might find a good deal on a used one. If you really want a desktop Mac (I've just switched to a Mac back in October, and love it), look into getting one of the aluminum iMacs. It will cost more than the Mini, obviously, but if it's in your price range it will almost certainly be a better value-for-money option. Alternatively, I love my Macbook Pro, and my wife adores her Macbook, and neither of them is underpowered enough to not serve as a desktop replacement, if that's your bag.

As for the Hackintosh, eh, I wouldn't bother. It's almost certainly not worth the headaches, and from what I understand, they tend to end up crippled after every upgrade. What you might save in money you will probably lose in migraines if you go that route.

[sultan2075]

Well, it might be a little bit easier than I let on:

http://lifehacker.com/348653/install-os ... g-required


But you're still probably better off with a Mac.

[reactiv8]

Does that Google 'freebie' Picasa work on Linux anyone? - It ain't great but it might 'wean' me off Photoshop if I choose to make the transition from Windoze, eh?

[Quiff Boy]

Does that Google 'freebie' Picasa work on Linux anyone? - It ain't great but it might 'wean' me off Photoshop if I choose to make the transition from Windoze, eh?

http://picasa.google.com/linux/

[reactiv8]

http://picasa.google.com/linux/

Wow! - I am Stunned/Impressed/Grateful/Not Worthy (all at the same time too!)

Thanks your Quiffness! - I am further indebted ...

I can't put all of this into practice 'cos I haven't acquired the necessary hardware yet, but I'm working on it ... Meanwhile, I tried Picasa with my collection of JPEG images (on a Windoze PC) and was quite impressed, but it took ages to scan through them all - Although I'm still familiarising myself with it, I'm probably doing something wrong and probably haven't sussed the shortcut yet?! Yeah, not a replacement for Photoshop - YET!

[Quiff Boy]

"not a replacement for Photoshop - YET!"

aye, and nothing really is, are to be honest.

that's the main problem for anyone that uses photoshop in any professional context... as good as some of the other apps might be, there are no real competitors for adobe when it comes to the functionality found in their photoshop and illustrator apps.

[James Blast]

Beg to differ on the second app there Boss, FreeHand is a far better graphic illustration and page layout package, but Adobe swallowed up Macromedia and killed off FreeHand. We have CS2 at work and I have tried working with Illustrator but it falls short on so many levels that I have to flip back to FreeHand. Similarly, InDesign has a lot of bells and whistles that Quark XPress is lacking but for fast type formatting and body text manipulation, QXP beats ID every time. I do wish Adobe would just clean up its current version of Acrobat and Distiller (indispensable to a designer these days) instead of putting out a release with more extraneous tools. Photoshop I have absolutely nothing but praise for, from v.6 onwards it has been a gem. The major fear the design and print industry has is, Adobe becoming a behemoth like Micro$oft (spit!) and dictating the market. Quark and Apple have shot themselves in the foot far too often in the past, Apple seems to have learned its lesson but Quark will go the way of FreeHand if they don't get their act together pretty sharpish.