Wayne on TSOM v's Mish

[snowey]

Wayne has just posted this on MWIS. It's his thoughts on the TSOM v's Mish thread that's been running over there and I thought some of you might like a read....

"Well, I haven't been on here for a while and having a spare hour or so this morning I've just read through this thread. It's certainly sparked a lively and interesting debate.
OK, Ramone asked for my take on this.
Firstly, I have no axe to grind with Andrew and haven't done for a long, long time. Wouldn't it be rather sad and pathetic if either of us was to still harbour any bad feelings towards the other? It's 23 years since I last worked with Andrew and that is a long time by any definition. I wouldn't be averse to getting together with Andrew, if the situation was to suit us both, and seeing if we could work together again, maybe to write a couple of tunes. But because it worked 23 years ago doesn't mean that it would work now. I'm sure we have both changed considerably in that time. As for a Sisters reformation, I can't see any point in that at all. But if we were to try and do something new then, yes, I could well be up for that.
As for Andrew not being able to sing, well, that's totally subjective. For me, Andrew is a totally unique and superb vocalist that has spawned a million imitators. I can sing, in the traditional sense, very well or rather I have learn't to sing very well but I have never felt that I had a particularly unique voice. For me, there is a fundamental difference. Again, Ramone hit the nail on the head when he made the observation that Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, & Leonard Cohen couldn't sing particularly well but have become icons because of their uniqueness. There are loads more I could think of too - Siouxsie, Robert Smith, Morrissey, Brian Molko, Marc Bolan, Bjork, Kate Bush - to name just a few. How do you think any of these people would fare if they were to appear on that tv show, X-factor is it called? They'd be laughed off the screen. By the same token the people that do appear on these shows are inane and characterless, much like most music is these days to my ancient ears. It seems to me to be more about conformity rather than being unique. Anyway, I digress. My point is this - if I had the choice of having a unique voice or the voice that I do have I would wish for something a little more unique. And I don't think it's something you can particularly cultivate or develop. It just is. And I'm sorry, Blue Jo, but I see a contradiction in your argument when you say that you think Andrew is talentless and tuneless and can't sing and that you prefer people who can actually sing and then you go onto say that you hate Frank Sinatra who is quite possibly technically the best singer I have ever heard. You also say that you like Joy Division because they are unique but let's face it, Ian Curtis couldn't sing in the traditional sense, could he? But he was unique, just as Bernard Sumner is. And that makes both Joy Division and New Order unique bands. I mention the two bands because they share a history, much like TSOM and The m*****n do. It boils down to this in the end. Music is subjective and it's only good if we like it and no one is right and no one is wrong.
The same goes for lyric writing. I would concede that Andrew is a more 'intelligent' lyricist than I am but I have had my (good) moments, I think. My lyric writing tends to be more visceral compared to Andrew's more deliberate and academic approach. Both ways of working are valid. When I was in TSOM that pretty much summed up the way that Andrew and I worked musically too. The two can work in tandem. It worked for us. The results bore that out. MGT is right when he said that I do have a great deal of pride in being involved in FALAA. I think it's a great album. I had occasion to play 'Marian' recently and that still sounds great. As do some of the 'old' m*****n records in my opinion. Again, it's subjective though. No opinion is right or wrong.
Maybe because of the way I work my output over the years has been been more prolific than Andrew's. I tend to 'just do things' and put them out and move onto the next thing. We all live and die by our deeds, don't we?
I do think that lyrically I have become more able to articulate myself over the years and I have become able to say what I want to say within the strictures of a song lyric. That being said GIAB was largely a work of 'stream of consciousness' and, neither rightly or wrongly, not too much time was spent in the writing. Quite often I would write a lyric in the morning and then go and vocal it in the afternoon. No, or very little, time was spent deliberating or editing. I have seen the criticisms here on MWIS regarding GIAB lyrics and all I would say is it was a work of the moment. Take it or leave it. It either 'talks' to you or it doesn't. That was the way I chose to work for that album. Regarding my early lyrics, yes, I did recycle. Still do. It's difficult when you've written 200+ songs not to feel that in some ways you are repeating something you've already once said. In my defense when I started writing lyrics for The m*****n it was fairly new to me and something that was thrust upon me by circumstance and I had to learn the 'art' as I went along, and publicly, and I didn't have the luxury of developing that skill in private beforehand as most people do. Anyway, for me, lyric writing is not a 'natural' talent of mine, it s something I have really had to work at. Unlike making music. I can pick up a guitar pretty much anytime and knock out a new tune or sit at a piano and put a few chords together. That's easy to me. Always has been.
As for intelligence, well, again that's something that I don't think you can cultivate. You either are or you're not. Education is something else completely different. Anyone can be educated. Some of the most educated people I know have no or very little intelligence. I'm not particularly educated - normal secondary school education - and I don't think I'm particularly intelligent but I know I'm not stupid. What I do/have done and the way I work works for me and thankfully for some of you.
As for Weaver's argument that The m*****n wouldn't have been as successful without TSOM, well, maybe he's right. There certainly wouldn't have been The m*****n without TSOM. But I do think that if The m*****n had been a brand new band (no history) back in 1986 we still would have been successful. It may have taken a little longer and our TSOM history certainly accelerated the process but ultimately it was down to how good we were, the songs, the records, and the live shows. Again, we live or die by our deeds. If we'd have been crap then we wouldn't have enjoyed the success we did. We were right for the time. And I also believe our success accelerated TSOM success too. It worked in both our favours.
As for the mystique of TSOM, well, it wasn't particularly calculated or premeditated. It's just the way we were. And when Craig and I formed the m*****n we went in the opposite direction, we became the antithesis of what TSOM were. Again, it wasn't calculated. It just developed that way. For every action there is a reaction. We were a gang, we enjoyed a camaraderie within the band and with our audience, we were approachable, available, and human.
Anyway, it all boils down to music in the end. And we all have differing tastes. Thank God. Both bands made their mark and have contributed to the history of rock music. Long live TSOM and The m*****n.
And Ramone, I have no idea what you're referring to when you threaten to expose me and Ian Astbury unless it's the fact that we did use to shove our tongues down each other's throats but that's no news.....I've always been prone to that little adventure and I must surely have had my tongue down your throat at some point, or at least tried......"

Cheers

Snowey

[msm67]

@snowey...thank you for the very informative article. very good read on a day when I wish I were in Belgium! thanks again!

[robertzombie]

Cheers

[radiojamaica]

Nice read indeed! Thanx for posting it here snowey.

[dinky daisy]

fair enough. I never took this m*****n / TSOM beef.

IT's just that i don't like The m*****n, don't like Fields OTN, 69 eyes, bauhaus, siouxie etc. It has nothing to do with the split.

To me, Sisters always fit with Stooges/ZZ Top/Suicide/Motorhead.

[msm67]

@ dinky daisy... never saw the Sisters as a "goth" band. always a punk/hard rock group, imho. 1st time I saw them, show was at a punk club...no goths in the crowd. tho' I like several "goth" bands, I just never thought of TSOM as belonging in that genre.

[Ozpat]

I have been one of the people judging him.
Respect for these words of the man.

Thanks for putting it here.

[Dark]

fair enough. I never took this m*****n / TSOM beef.

IT's just that i don't like The m*****n, don't like Fields OTN, 69 eyes, bauhaus, siouxie etc. It has nothing to do with the split.

To me, Sisters always fit with Stooges/ZZ Top/Suicide/Motorhead.

No, sorry, I can't understand that. TSOM barely gel with Suicide in my head, and not at all with Motörhead. No matter how many times I'm told how similar they are, I can't see or hear it.

[Obviousman]

No, sorry, I can't understand that. TSOM barely gel with Suicide in my head, and not at all with Motörhead. No matter how many times I'm told how similar they are, I can't see or hear it.

It's where the gigs come in really.

Excellent read this, seems a nice enough bloke even though I hardly like his band

[msm67]

@ Dark...what about with "Girl"? listening to that, I can hear some similarities.

[psichonaut]

I appreciated very much Wayne's words....
....i'm jst a bit deluded about him and Astbury....but tastes are tastes.....anyhow kudos for both singers/musicians

[eotunun]

@ Wayne ! Nicely put!
And: So that's where Ramone got stuck! He's in Wayne's World!

[Izzy HaveMercy]

I had occasion to play 'Marian' recently and that still sounds great.

Of course he likes it! He plays it every time the Mishun play "Wasteband"! Would be kinda weird not liking yer own songs...

as you were, people

IZ.

[Ghostrider]

No, sorry, I can't understand that. TSOM barely gel with Suicide in my head, and not at all with Motörhead. No matter how many times I'm told how similar they are, I can't see or hear it.

It's where the gigs come in really.

Excellent read this, seems a nice enough bloke even though I hardly like his band

spot on.. good read.. seems like a nice bloke.. just not into that band..

[Dark]

@ Dark...what about with "Girl"? listening to that, I can hear some similarities.

Only in passing, perhaps, to some of the very early songs (like BE), but for the vast majority of their output, still can't see it.

I can't quite imagine TSOM playing "Bomber", though it'd be pretty cool. He just hasn't the voice for it.

[timsinister]

Brilliant final line. Well, who can fault him when he's out and discussing it, whilst our Paramount Leader won't even discuss his shopping list*? It would be interesting to see a response...and also to fly to Jupiter and back!

* - Cat food, vodka, cranberry juice, copy of Der Spiegel† and 20 B&Hs.

† - And a copy of the Daily Sport to go inside.

[Quiff Boy]

its an interesting read - borne from maturity & experience. i can't say i disagree with any of his comments re: the sisters. von or the sisters v mish debate.

nicely done

[Karst]

As some people said on the MWIS forum, would be nice if Wayne could jump on the stage with the Sisters in the future. Just for a few songs, like Hinkler did with the recent Mish gigs.

[psichonaut]

As some people said on the MWIS forum, would be nice if Wayne could jump on the stage with the Sisters in the future. Just for a few songs, like Hinkler did with the recent Mish gigs.

agree

[Silver_Owl]

I have been one of the people judging him.
Respect for these words of the man.

Thanks for putting it here.

Agreed. Well reasoned and articulate comments.

[sisterstekland]

pffff, this guy critized so many times , he is wanking around now and wish to get back with the sisters, don't think they need him, ben & chris can do better work, they just prouve it at tienen gig.
I agreer when he say that is a great singer, even if he get lost with lyrics on stage, he always get back to the song very very well and can do whatever he want with all of them.
he can stay where he is and I really hope that will give him a nice f**k off as answer.

And I also believe our success accelerated TSOM success too

other way is more right to me

No worry m*****n fan, they will be back soon

[Ramone]

As some people said on the MWIS forum, would be nice if Wayne could jump on the stage with the Sisters in the future. Just for a few songs, like Hinkler did with the recent Mish gigs.

agree

Yup, that was my suggestion and comment. Just judging by the reaction and even the rumour that Hinkler was going to re-join Wayne onstage seemed to heighten the anticipation of the shows.

If the Sisters as they are now announced a show and the rumour went round that Hussy and Marx were going to join Andrew onstage for a couple of tunes - not only would it gain a lot more interest on a fan level, but most certainly on a media level too. Which would be beneficial for all concerned.

On a personal level I'd rather stick my member in a blender than see the current incarnation of the Sisters, and from what I've read of their live shows , I'm not alone. But to hear Andrew, Wayne and Gary rattle through a few Sisters tunes for old times sake would be a nice night out. Craig;s attendance would maybe require the need of a team of horses, some blocks of ice to help hell freeze over and a 200 foot restraining order!

[stufarq]

If there was a restraining order he wouldn't actually be able to be on the same stage as them...

[Ramone]

If there was a restraining order he wouldn't actually be able to be on the same stage as them...

He could stand at the back of the hall / car park and play along

[Karst]

Or some cold, hard Yorkshire humour could do it.