loudness wars split from Fat Bob topic

[Syberberg]

Joking aside about personal taste issues, this is something that is happening/has happened right across the music genre spectrum. It is completely destroying the listening pleasure of music.

It makes listening to music for long periods tiring. Your brain cannot find anything to latch onto and tries to filter it out, to ignore it. Thanks to the volume and density, it can't. Irritation sets in and, fairly quickly, you turn the hi-fi off. What happens next is that the listener then generally decides that the album is crap, the artist worthless and doesn't by another thing by them. And the record industry then tries to figure out why sales of physical product are falling.

A couple of videos from You Tube that illustrate the problem very well indeed.

Clicky 1

Clicky 2

For a good collection of articles, Turn Me Up! is pretty good. Hopefully, it'll be pf particular interest for those of us here that are in bands.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

I'm getting a certification from that site!

Top reads Syberberg!

And remember kids, YOU have the power to stop this.

Don't buy crap music. As if you ever did.


IZ.

[Dark]

I would like to point out now that I've only on rare occasions used any compressors on my stuff, generally only drums and vocals, and they're distorted as f**k anyway.

I do not approve of brick-wall limited sounds, even for industrial.

[Syberberg]

I'm getting a certification from that site!

Somehow, I thought you might (particularly after listening to some of your tunes).

Top reads Syberberg!

Anytime, no charge.

Dark, same here. I've got an experiment to carry out with a few kick tracks, where I sort out the 'verb first (if needed) and EQ, then clone the track. The second track is split and then bounced to mono for some compression, then I'm going to see what happens when I then mix the original stereo kick track with the compressed mono. I want to see if I can get a pulsating kick track that still retains impact and hides the "suck/pump" that is so effing prevailing. I'll probably end up with a horrid mush, but there's only one way to find out.

[moses]

Then it's handed over to the label's A&R men who then hand it off to the mastering engineer to add the final polish.

What are A&R men doing interfering with recording and mastering? surely that is the job of the producer.

Are you involved with recording music for a record company?

[Dark]

Well, since I put distortion on vocals and drums alike (and probably some synths), that's a type of compression.
But in general, dynamics are fun.

[Pista]

What are A&R men doing interfering with recording and mastering? surely that is the job of the producer.

Which is prolly why a lot of production these days is wank.
They know it's just going to be fcuked up by some cnut in a suit who wouldn't know music if it fell on him, so why bother?

I really like Porcupine Tree. They take a lot of care over their production & mastering & it really shows in the end product.
It's sad that we are fobbed off with this louder than necessary stuff, just so they can shift an extra few "units".
Same goes for dvds really.
For years we have been duped into believing tht the sound & video quality is the "dog's"
Is it feck?
DVD's can handle 24 bit audio & yet most commercial dvds use 16bit soundtracks.
Take (sorry about this) The Cure's Trilogy & play with the dd soundtrack.
Then do the same with the LPCM (non messed about with audio) soundtrack.
Immense diference.
I make 24 it audio dvds from 24 bit source files & they are stunning.
I have a friend in the USA who is taping some Sisters shows in 24 bit resolution later this year.
Hope to be able to share those.

[Syberberg]

Then it's handed over to the label's A&R men who then hand it off to the mastering engineer to add the final polish.

What are A&R men doing interfering with recording and mastering? surely that is the job of the producer.

The producer's sole job is to guide the band in the recording process. They "produce" the recording. Usually making it sound the way the record company wants (after all, that's who they're contracted to, not the band. Exceptions are usually made for top name producers and artists, but even then things can get nasty for the band. Like taking the mix tapes and completely remixing them behind the backs of the artist and releasing what they (the company) want rather than what the band want, then letting the band take all the flack from their fan base) and the company will often hire a producer for their "trademark sound". Once the recording is handed to the A&R men, that's the producer's job over and done with.

The record industry is just as murky and as nasty as international politics and diplomacy.

Are you involved with recording music for a record company?

No, but I know several people who are and it's been a long time hobby/part time job of mine. If you want to write and record your own music, it's extremely helpful to know what's what so you avoid being shafted. It's why I've got my own label and will never sign to a major or one of their "independent" subsidiaries. Nor would I advise any sane person to do so.

Another thing to remember, is that when a band signs a recording contract, the record company owns the recordings. All of them and can, therefore, completely legally, do whatever they want with them, regardless of what the band wants.

A record company (well, the majors and their subsidiaries) aren't about making music. They couldn't give a rat's golden bollock about it. They make money for their shareholders.

[EvilBastard]

Joking aside about personal taste issues, this is something that is happening/has happened right across the music genre spectrum. It is completely destroying the listening pleasure of music.

It makes listening to music for long periods tiring. Your brain cannot find anything to latch onto and tries to filter it out, to ignore it. Thanks to the volume and density, it can't. Irritation sets in and, fairly quickly, you turn the hi-fi off. What happens next is that the listener then generally decides that the album is crap, the artist worthless and doesn't by another thing by them. And the record industry then tries to figure out why sales of physical product are falling.

I'd agree with you 99.9% of the time, the remainder being reserved for the limited but extremely high quality output of Big Black and the copious and very loud output of Judas Priest. There does seem to be a lack of awareness in current music production that there is a distinction between "very loud because it has to be" and "very loud because it has to mask the fact that the music is cr@p". Fortunately people like Steve Albini know what they're about when it comes to the knobs and sliders:

It always offended me when I was in the studio and the engineer or the assumed producer for the session would start bossing the band around. That always seemed like a horrible insult to me. The band was paying money for the privilege of being in a recording studio, and normally when you pay for something, you get to say how it's done. So, I made up my mind when I started engineering professionally that I wasn't going to behave like that.

One can only hope that the music industry at large (not the bits of it that understand that music is for listening to, for enhancing a mood) realises that cr@p music is cr@p music no matter what volume it's played at, will stop signing cr@p bands just because the brother of the intern that the A&R guy is boinking plays bass, and will focus on quality product. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I"m not the only one.

[Syberberg]

Well, since I put distortion on vocals and drums alike (and probably some synths), that's a type of compression.
But in general, dynamics are fun.

True, but it doesn't destroy the dynamics like brick walling does.

One of the things I like doing in Reason is to take a cymbal sample and abuse it with the Scream 4 Distortion, then run that through a verb unit (usually the RV7000) followed by the BV512 Vocoder set as an EQ.

[moses]

No, but I know several people who are

I know 2 architects but I don't know how to design a house.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

I know 2 architects but I don't know how to design a house.

That's because you don't take an interest in the process then. If you hang around long enough with the architects and go with them to some of their projects to have a look, and listen to what they have to tell, you will figure out a lot.

Syberberg does just that, I presume.

So do I, by the way

IZ.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

Another thing to remember, is that when a band signs a recording contract, the record company owns the recordings. All of them and can, therefore, completely legally, do whatever they want with them, regardless of what the band wants.

In practice, this happens to most of them, but nothing prevents the band to include a line in the contract forbidding just this.

Also, the record company only gets the mechanical rights on the record (for pressing and reproducing), never the intellectual.

But, as you say, most record companies include this clausule, and... well... I can't blame them for it.

Suppose your band gets a deal with company 1, and a lot of money (harhar) to record. Then, the record is finished and released. Company 2 (bit bigger than company 1) hears this and wants to re-issue your stunning album, with new mastering and nicer artwank and most important of all, more copies hence more money.

That would mean that company 1 invested all the money for recording, and company 2 only have to invest in a re-mastering and some fancy bits of shiny colored paper.

To avoid this, a clausule stating that the record remains in company 1's possession is a solution. The only thing company 2 can do is 'buy out' the record, often for nice sums of money.

Canon "Jess" Docre, where are you when we need you!

IZ.

[James Blast]

I think she's designing houses...

[markfiend]

The first time I encountered brick-wall sound was when I borrowed Slipknot's self-titled album. (I know, I know.)

When copying it to minidisc, I was amazed that the level meters on my MD recorder just seemed to stay on full practically the whole way through the CD.

And blimey, it hurts to listen to it for long periods.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

The first time I encountered brick-wall sound was when I borrowed Slipknot's self-titled album. (I know, I know.)

When copying it to minidisc, I was amazed that the level meters on my MD recorder just seemed to stay on full practically the whole way through the CD.

And blimey, it hurts to listen to it for long periods.

Try Ricky Martin's 'Living La Vida Loca' if you dare

IZ.

[markfiend]

Why in hell would I want to do that?

[Izzy HaveMercy]

Why in hell would I want to do that?

This is what it looks like, if you want the day off work and want to develope a migraine, listen to it. Not only because the song is crap but the sound is too



In comparison, same year (1999) Westlife's 'Swear it again':



Europe got under the influence of America soon enough after that tho

EDIT: Small explanation: The lines topmost and bottommost are the 0dB line. I will spare you the technical details (because I don't know all the tiny details about the technical stuff myself), but that's the limit. Some peaks above this is no disaster (you can see 3 or 4 in the Westlife song), but look at 'Livin' La Vida Loca' and WEEP!

IZ.

[markfiend]

I see what you mean.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

Oh, or maybe an example closer at home for most of you:

"Many hold the opinion that only a handful of albums, such as the Red Hot Chili Peppers' 1999 release Californication (a CD with such excessive amounts of high-frequency digital clipping that audio enthusiasts have deemed it "unlistenable"), are examples worth considering, while others believe any CD where digital full scale is utilized should be considered unacceptable. Such listeners may be unwilling to listen to albums mastered in a loudness-based fashion. Conversely, others may not notice the effects at all or consider them only a minor annoyance. "

The album received criticism for what Tim Anderson of The Guardian called "excessive compression and distortion" in the process of digital remastering.

Stylus Magazine labeled it as one of the victims of the loudness war and commented that it suffered from digital clipping so much that "even non-audiophile consumers complained about it".

IZ.

[weebleswobble]

things need to be LOUD I iz going fcking deef

[Izzy HaveMercy]

things need to be LOUD I iz going fcking deef

'because' or 'in spite of' ?



IZ.

[Ahráyeph]

My two cents; seems I've managed to miss this entirely up to now...

Re. Yamaha NS-10's : once upon a time, they were the reference, but I've talked to many a musician who felt they were quite midrange-y and didn't like their sound at all. Before choosing my Rose Creek nearfields, I read everything there is to read about studio monitors, especially for the budget I had available. I chose Yamaha MSP-5's, based on the review of an actual sound engineer, who tested them thoroughly and posted a JPG of the sound curve (not the one Yamaha used in their promotion for the MSP-5), which showed that, a little nudge in the low end (around 80-100Hz), the monitors were as flat in response as you would get. Not bad for a budget baffle, methinks. And I can hear exactly what the curve showed : when I started working on them, I had a tendency to downmix the lower frequencies because I though they 'boomed' too much, then wondered where the bass was when I tested my mixes on other gear. After some careful testing with albums and songs I use as an example for me to live up to mix and master wise, I 'put the bass back in', so to speak. Only a certain Herr Blaast thinks I should put in even more. Overall, I'm happy now with the performance of those MSP-5's. I did work with NS-10's, and Genelecs, and Tannoys; even heard ART's in action when we were recording 'Rvbicon' with Ancient Rites, and I still feel that my wee Yamaha's are contenders, good ones at that. It all comes down to the fact that no matter how neutral your monitors are going to be, they still have their quirks and you have to get used to them and learn how to work with them. Studio monitors are a tool, not mere baffles you listen to music to...

As for the loudness wars... Anyone listen to the new Metallica album and/or mp3's derived thereof? It sounds DISTORTED!! It's not just clipping; no, it is really distorted! I read in a thread on the SOS website the mastering engineer went so far as to disown the record, by publicly announcing the mixes were heavily limited before they even arrived. Moreoever, on his website he posted an image of Death Magnetic, encircled in red with 'FAIL' written next to it. Well, I think it was Rick Rubin who first made me aware of the loudness thing, as Slayer's 'Reign in Blood' was, at the time of first release, louder than anything else out there and, predictably, metalheads worldwide went 'WHOA, dude! That's SO cool! LOUDERRRR!!!'. Yes, I was one of them. And your ears wouldn't get tired, because that album is so short, it would be over before ear fatigue had the chance to set in.
I find that the albums I keep coming back to, are either mastered carefully (purely soundwise, Tool's 'Lateralus' is a brilliantly mixed and mastered album) or are just taken from the final mix or a master that was only used to round out the sound, not to push the loudness levels to the insanity realm (eg. Mazzy Star's 'Among My Swan', Fields of the Nephilim's 'Elizium' or The God Machine's 'One Last Laugh In A Place Of Dying').
The truly sad thing is that the people buying music these days are so used to everything being louder than everything else (to coin a phrase) that they actually complain if your music isn't loud enough, compared to 'professional bands' (trust me, I've had to swallow that criticism more than once over the years). So it's easy to get overcome by this and join in with the loudness pushing, because that's what your audience wants and you want your record to sell well. But after a while, you get tired of listening to your own mixes and you'll try to work out a compromise, with varying levels of success.

Basically, for us musicians on this forum who want to do it themselves, it comes down to a couple of rules of thumb :

- Get your feckin' mix right from the start and don't try to fix it in the mastering section. Using the mastering section of your DAW while recording will give you a false image of what you're hearing.

- Take the advice I've read here a couple of times and listen to your mixes - and the premaster, if you are a total DIY nut (like me) - not only through different speakers in your/a studio environment, but in other environments, like bars (you can be surprised how much you'll learn from listening to your mix through a set of bar speakers while there are punters around who don't give a s**t about the musical wallpaper they're aware of somewhat in the background) and car stereos. The latter is indeed a litmus test. I didn't send out the premaster CD of 'Marooned on Samsara' before I had checked it thoroughly on my car speakers, while driving to Cologne and back (meaning : plenty of time to judge the CD's sound under the varying driving conditions I encountered). This should be made compulsary for any budding sound engineer.

- When using a loudness maximizer for mastering (the root of all evil; its name says it all), I use the following standard rule : if the drums/percussion/rhythm samples aren't being limited on their own, you still have plenty of headroom for the other instruments, but you have to factor in that the vocals are in fact the loudest instrument on your recordings (well, not if you're in FGG, of course ), so that you'll have to make sure it gets through without being clipped.

In general, my maximizer settings are brickwalled at -0.1, as absolute zero in digital recording is a big no no and the amount of limiting/expansion can only peak at -3 at any given time, depending on the accuracy of the metering. Is it loud then? Yup. Is it as loud as everything else out there? No. But at least it's not clipping all over the place and hurting your ears. And it'll actually sound good while pleasing the customer, who may notice it's not as loud as Death Magnetic, but she/he'll find she/he can listen to my album for a lot longer than that sorry excuse for a mixed and mastered record (and this while 'DM' is in fact quite a good album musically, compared to the last 15 years worth of albums, but that's for a different thread )...

[Izzy HaveMercy]

As for the loudness wars... Anyone listen to the new Metallica album and/or mp3's derived thereof? It sounds DISTORTED!! It's not just clipping; no, it is really distorted!

Visual proof.

Top: the version as used in the PS3 game "Guitar Hero"
Bottom: The cd version you all love so much.

The nice thing about these discussions is there is always UNDESPUTABLE VISIBLE PROOF, unlike Roswell or the new Sisters album

I read in a thread on the SOS website the mastering engineer went so far as to disown the record, by publicly announcing the mixes were heavily limited before they even arrived. Moreoever, on his website he posted an image of Death Magnetic, encircled in red with 'FAIL' written next to it.

http://www.metallicabb.com/index.php?s= ... 85317&st=0



IZ.

[markfiend]

Blimey.

(I love Lateralus btw Raf )