Ethics regarding animals n' stuff

[Badlander]

Isn't BodyShop ethical? I thought it was supposed to be.

Maybe before they were bought by L'Oreal they were acceptable. But now I wouldn't give them a single penny. They have two shops here in Strasbourg, and they truly look like a fcuking cosmetics supermarket. Alternative my ass. At least Lush does look a bit genuine, and even if all they do is give me good conscience. That's a start, to make things just a little more acceptable !

[eastmidswhizzkid]

i never use shampoos tested on animals...or on people for that matter.
however i have to confess that occassionaly i'm forced to exploit bunnies- i put one on my head and from a distance it looks like hare!



</coat>.

[Quiff Boy]

'Original Source' is not really cruelty-free, the parent company (P Z Cussins IIRC) test on animals.

that said, the OS stuff is approved by the vegan society (and carries the stamp, accordingly) so someone there must have performed due diligence on the range

[7anthea7]

I've stayed out of this one, inasmuch as recommendations from someone in the US would be pretty useless, i.e. expensive - who wants to have to get basic toiletries by overseas mail?

However...does anyone have recommendations for cosmetics of this ilk that come in decent colour ranges? I've had to compromise my convictions on this for a long time because most of the stuff that's being produced...well, I'm sure it's great for their target consumers, but I'm not a tree-hugging soccer-mom I need deep, dark, dramatic colour (what a surprise, eh?), which has so far eluded me in the cruelty-free area

[Quiff Boy]

dont know how much use it is to you (being in the US) but over here there's a brand called barry m that have being doing gothy stuff for years and has always been cruelty free (AFAIK)

www.barrym.com

also, this might be of some use

http://www.justbeautifully.co.uk/green- ... cturer.php

GreenPeople's Ethics:

Green People are committed to offering products that are 100% natural, certified organic and highly effective.They will maintain their quest for excellence, creativity and innovation at all times, and will not compromise the quality of any Green People product.

None of the formulations or products are or ever have been tested on animals and most of our products are registered by the Vegan Society. All of the products are suitable for Vegetarians. They also believe that you have a fundamental right to know exactly what is contained in the products you are buying and therefore give full ingredient disclosure on all of our products.

they have a list at the bottom of the page of 'approved' manufacturers

[7anthea7]

Yea - thanks so much! Just about everybody will ship to the US as long as you have a functioning credit card

[Nicole]

However...does anyone have recommendations for cosmetics of this ilk that come in decent colour ranges? I've had to compromise my convictions on this for a long time because most of the stuff that's being produced...well, I'm sure it's great for their target consumers, but I'm not a tree-hugging soccer-mom I need deep, dark, dramatic colour (what a surprise, eh?), which has so far eluded me in the cruelty-free area

Urban Decay is completely cruelty free - they also have a list of stuff on their site that is completely vegan.
http://www.urbandecay.com/vegan.cfm

The stuff is a bit expensive - and honestly they used to be MUCH edgier when it first came out mid-90s - but the eyeshadows are lovely, the palettes are nice cause you get lots of colors. The lipsticks are nice too, depends on which finish you get though - anything marked "sheer" or even "semi-sheer" really is, the full coverage stuff is nice though. "Gash" is lovely but it's not the same as the original Gash color - I have two tubes of the old one, it was deep dark metallic blood red. The new version available is dark but more of a berry red.

Anyways - I'm a bit of a makeup junkie, mix of drugstore and more expensive stuff. MAC has probably the largest selection of colors I've ever seen, and are cruelty free (not vegan though)

You should also check out Fyrinnae ( http://www.fyrinnae.com/index.php?_a=viewDoc&docId=1 ) Small company with LOVELY colors and also cruelty free - only available through mail though. A bit more affordable than both MAC and Urban Decay as well.

You should join Makeup Alley. ( www.makeupalley.com ) The boards are great for discussing this kind of thing (I know I've seen this kind of talk there before) great reviews, member pics, etc. I've found stuff I didn't even know existed because of this site.

[Nicole]

7anthea7, you might also want to check out Aromaleigh. They make mineral cosmetics, I have not tried them but they are also cruelty-free. Hehe, and definitely at least look at the page for the "Rocks! Sonic Eyes" eyeshadows ( http://www.aromaleigh.com/rockssoniceyes.html ) - they're all named after songs, GOOD songs too. Several Sisters references. Dominion, Black Planet, Adrenochrome, and Body Electric are all in there. And here (glitter - http://www.aromaleigh.com/arrosocoglgl.html ) are Phantom, Valentine, and Ribbons.

[6FeetOver]

You should join Makeup Alley. ( www.makeupalley.com ) The boards are great for discussing this kind of thing (I know I've seen this kind of talk there before) great reviews, member pics, etc. I've found stuff I didn't even know existed because of this site.

I used to hang out there, myself!

[Passing_through]

that said, the OS stuff is approved by the vegan society (and carries the stamp, accordingly) so someone there must have performed due diligence on the range

It’s the same as the Body Shop/L’Oreal scenario really. The ‘brand’ is non-animal-tested but if you buy from the Body Shop you are in essence giving your money to L’Oreal, if you buy ‘Original Source’ you are giving your money to Cussons.

It depends entirely on how far you want to take it. My personal view is that it isn’t that difficult to buy shampoo and the like from companies who do not test on animals at all so I am not prepared to support those that do, even indirectly, but I agree that it can be difficult to work out who the truly ‘good’ and the ‘bad’ companies are, particularly when they are allowed to put ‘not tested on animals’ on their labelling even if this only relates to the finished product or if they use the 5-year rule.

Other people will buy e.g. Original Source in the belief that doing so demonstrates a demand for non-animal-tested products. I’m not sure that it does.

[markfiend]

C'mon though, it's impossible to avoid that kind of thing completely.

Don't want to drive a car? Fine, get the bus. Except you find out that your local bus company uses BP fuel, and there's the whole BP/Nigeria thing.

Want greener electricity? Renewables it is! Except hydroelectric involves putting up huge dams disrupting natural habitats, wind turbines kill birds, and nuclear is, well, nuclear.

I could go on but you get the point. There's no such thing as a completely ethical alternative, you just have to muddle through as best you can.

[6FeetOver]

Finding non-animal-tested fragrances (and fragrances that don't contain animal by-products) is difficult, but if you want to get absolutely lost in a mind-bending maze of g*thy fragrance (that's mostly vegan and completely non-animal-tested!), try the Black Phoenix Alchemy Lab. After awhile, I had to stop ordering samples (and I've kinda/sorta forbidden myself from entering the site entirely ), because the obsession was spiraling out of control. There's WAY too much deliciousness to choose from. Be warned.

[Brideoffrankenstein]

FBlack Phoenix Alchemy Lab

You sound like my friend Julie, she's obsessed with that place! She got me loads of their stuff for my birthday last year and it's all gorgeous I haven't ever been on their website because I know what will happen!

@ markfiend
I completely hear what you are saying...while researching things regarding animal testing for myself last weekend I got a bit side-tracked and went onto loads of vegan websites and gave myself a huge guilt trip! I would love to be a vegan I really would, I have been out with a vegan and had excellent vegan meals cooked by him and his friends for me - a few of the best home-cooked things I have ever had to be honest, but my vegan cooking is a bit of a disaster really. I cannot make TVP taste of *anything* no matter how long I soak it in vegetable stock/whatever and I can't live on thai red tofu curry which is the only vegan thing I can cook. If only Quorn was vegan.

Anyway, back to the point - yes you can only take things so far. You would never be able to go out of your house or consume anything without something somewere relating back to something bad. The line has to be drawn somewhere and my line is still buying Schwarzkopf Cosmic Blue hairdye!

Thanks everyone on this thread I am impressed with everyone who has contributed

[Nicole]

FBlack Phoenix Alchemy Lab

You sound like my friend Julie, she's obsessed with that place! She got me loads of their stuff for my birthday last year and it's all gorgeous I haven't ever been on their website because I know what will happen!

I have spent tons of time browsing that site - not just reading descriptions for the scents but everything they include on the product pages, inspirations and such! - never ended up ordering anything because there's just too much to choose from, even though I've always just planned on ordering samples I've never been able to narrow it down enough to a reasonable sized (and priced) order.

[Brideoffrankenstein]

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=DsHUBEfBNMo

Sorry to bring this all up again (!) but I just saw this video, and I don't know if I'm more appalled at PETA or Penn and Teller (who I used to quite like)

[markfiend]

PETA in the states are insane though. It's not the same as PETA in the UK.

[Quiff Boy]

i have a lot of time for PETA (uk & usa)

some of their stuff borders on 'direct action' and i have trouble with that, but at the end of the day its about raising awareness. they dont do the more radical stuff just for a whim - its usually because all other course of (sane) action has failed.

[markfiend]

This is what I mean about them being insane: they suggest switching from cow's milk to breast milk in Ben and Jerry's ice cream

[Quiff Boy]

they dont always mean it literally - its just shock tactics designed to make you go "why?"

these days shock tactics are the only thing that gets in the media or that gets through people's tv-numbed consciousness

[7anthea7]

these days shock tactics are the only thing that gets in the media or that gets through people's tv-numbed consciousness

S'truth - says less about PETA than it does about the general run of homo sapiens, dunnit?

[Silver_Owl]

...and eight months later...

Hair care tonight by Naked
Face wash by Boots Botanics
Body wash by Source.

I discovered Naked a few weeks back. No sign of monkeys with stinging eyes anywhere.

[Silver_Owl]

...and eight months later...

Hair care tonight by Naked
Face wash by Boots Botanics
Body wash by Source.

I discovered Naked a few weeks back. No sign of monkeys with stinging eyes anywhere.

[Syberberg]

C'mon though, it's impossible to avoid that kind of thing completely.

Don't want to drive a car? Fine, get the bus. Except you find out that your local bus company uses BP fuel, and there's the whole BP/Nigeria thing.

Want greener electricity? Renewables it is! Except hydroelectric involves putting up huge dams disrupting natural habitats, wind turbines kill birds, and nuclear is, well, nuclear.

I could go on but you get the point. There's no such thing as a completely ethical alternative, you just have to muddle through as best you can.

You forgot solar in that renewables list mark. I've not studies the manufacture process, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere along the line it has it's hazards to the environment.

But you're perfectly right, everything humans do to keep the over populated, energy hungry, industrialised civilisation going is detrimental to the environment in some way, shape or form.

[Being645]

... everything humans do to keep the over populated, energy hungry, industrialised civilisation going is detrimental to the environment in some way, shape or form.

It is. And that's why they should stop quarrelling about who dominates the land and the people
and rather take a look at what we've got and how to make to best of it for every creature.

But heaven knows how long it will still take until this human race gets a grip on the fact that
it's their decision to make death their master on earth. So far they haven't got beyond using
what they could get hold of for their own benefit ... which is (more or less) a long way from the
profound command of the world some might feel ordered to assume.

Instead, they look away from certain denotations of such orders, flattering themselves with and
abusing the powers of their authorities ... and some of them even out of what they define for
themselves - and towards those who more or less voluntarily depend on them - as a "helpless situation". Uh.

Of course, I want to drive my car ... but I will never ever voluntarily buy
a new one, because I don't want to participate in the waste of what we're
given for the sake of fast, senseless and often recklessly destructive profits ...

[DeWinter]

some of their stuff borders on 'direct action' and i have trouble with that, but at the end of the day its about raising awareness. they dont do the more radical stuff just for a whim - its usually because all other course of (sane) action has failed.

Speaking of direct action,I remember reading about the activists who were running a "blackmail" campaign against the rather unpleasant Huntingdon Life Sciences (apparently threatening to tell everyone what your business does/supports and protesting about it until you stop counts as blackmail now. Who Knew?).
4-11 years in jail. Makes you wonder why they didn't commit a murder or two whilst doing it. That only gets you about seven years now.