Floodland contributors

[Guedzilla]

Colours always sounded VERY like it was Von singing. Even hearing it inside the Floodland album didn't sounded to me like it was a different person singing.

[ashville]

A few points:

1. 2-5-0-0-0 was a reference to the publishing advance of £25,000 payable by RCA Music on the release of the next album by any of the individuals who had signed to RCA as writers and written on FALAA. The day after (or thereabouts) the cheque for the advance was obtained Eldritch was no longer an RCA writer and several publishing companies had their lawyers look very hard again at their standard publishing contracts. I think we can safely assume that "Gift" fulfilled the definition of an "Album" under the RCA publishing deal (minimum 5 tracks, minimum total playing time of whatever the playing time of "Gift" is). I think the m*****n remained signed to RCA for songwriting (if you have an original copy of an early single it should say on the label - I dont have one to check). "Floodland" (written by Eldritch) was originally published by SBK Songs which had nothing to do with RCA.

2. I understand that standard record contracts do not prevent a performer from writing and producing for other people, as it would be an unfair restriction on their activities (see the career of Phil Collins in the 80's, for example). Where writing and producing end and performing begins is a tricky subject, but singing lead vocals is DEFINITELY performing. Programming is right there on the fence.

3. Alan Vega played in Leeds around the time "Gift" was being made. A man with a beard and shades was seen by a very reliable source entering Mr Vega's dressing room armed with a professional tape machine taken for the purposes of recording Vega's voice and declaring his intention to do so and "have some fun" with the results. Voice recordings can be speeded up and slowed down in the studio (with predictable results on the pitch), and its too easy to assume that the voice saying "2-5-0-0-0" is a female. It might not be, although its definitely an American accent.

All of the above is hearsay. I wasn't there M'Lud.

[stufarq]

Then, do they play any of their usual parts on the album?

James Ray sings. As far as I'm aware, that's what he usually did.

I'm just asking, since I assumed it was a Von show throughout. Would be interesting to learn there'd be, for instance, Alan Vega's keys.

That is what the Sisterhood wiki says he did. That and vocals. But there are a lot of keyboards on that album. Was Vega enough of a player to do all that? Does it make more sense to assume that Eldritch played most of the keys?

That's an odd clause to have

Oh, I agree. I'm not sure which version I believe.

So...
Jihad: Patsy
Colours: Lucas Fox
Giving Ground: James Ray
Finland Red, Egypt White: Lucas Fox
Rain from Heaven: Lucas Fox
Everyone aside Alan Vega would now be accounted for at least something.

I think it sounds like a male voice actually saying "Jihad". Or possibly more than one voice, depending on how it was modulated.

2-5-0-0-0 was a reference to the publishing advance of £25,000

There are several accounts of what the figure actually represents. As well as the publishing advance and the label advance I mentioned above, another is that it was Eldritch's earnings for the year. I think Eldritch himself has given different accounts in different interviews, although I may be misremembering that.

I think the m*****n remained signed to RCA for songwriting

Yes, you're right. RCA/Copyright Control.

its too easy to assume that the voice saying "2-5-0-0-0" is a female. It might not be, although its definitely an American accent.

But it does sound very like Patsy's voice.

[ashville]

£25,000 was the publishing advance.

There couldn't have been a Warners advance for "Gift" as Warners had nothing to do with it.

You should read what the man himself wrote about the Sisterhood affair on the official website. Bollocks to anything said "in interviews".....

"Giving Ground" was released to prevent the other band using the name "The Sisterhood".

"Gift" was released to bag the publishing advance and get out of the publishing contract with RCA.

"Floodland" was released with no credits for performers other than the New York Choral Society.

So maybe the vocals on it were by Alan Vega, Lucas Fox and James Ray......

[mh]

"Floodland" was released with no credits for performers other than the New York Choral Society.

Wasn't even a performance credit, just a "thank you". It's reasonable to assume that it was them, and you'd be bonkers not to, but all the same there's no difference in the acknowledgement they get compared to what Claire, Kenny Giles or Ray/Harrison get.

[stufarq]

"Floodland" was released with no credits for performers other than the New York Choral Society.

Wasn't even a performance credit, just a "thank you". It's reasonable to assume that it was them, and you'd be bonkers not to, but all the same there's no difference in the acknowledgement they get compared to what Claire, Kenny Giles or Ray/Harrison get.

It's confirmed on the official website.

[stufarq]

£25,000 was the publishing advance.

There couldn't have been a Warners advance for "Gift" as Warners had nothing to do with it.

You should read what the man himself wrote about the Sisterhood affair on the official website. Bollocks to anything said "in interviews".....

"Giving Ground" was released to prevent the other band using the name "The Sisterhood".

"Gift" was released to bag the publishing advance and get out of the publishing contract with RCA.

I have read the official site. Including the bit about "WEA, who protect their option on the other band", which is untrue. WEA said the new band had no future, didn't object to them releasing an independent single while still under contract, having conveniently left the master tapes unattended on a desk for the band's manager to nab. If this account has inaccuracies, why assume it's correct when Eldritch has given other versions in interviews?

The problem is that none of the explanations really stands up:

The album advance - This wouldn't have been for Gift (you can't give an advance for an album that's already been released) but for whatever came next ie Floodland. But it's a bizarre offer to make in the first place, especially when both parties are already under contract to you.

The publishing advance - Again, it's a strange offer. This would be the "second album" option on an already existing contract. It would be paid for songs not yet written or recorded, not for an album already released. RCA wouldn't need to see if anyone could get an album out before deciding whether to take up the option - all parties already had a proven track record and a record deal. Nor does it make sense for RCA to drop Eldritch after giving him the advance as they haven't recouped any of it. Either the Floodland songs would be published by RCA or they would ask for their money back. And Eldritch certainly can't have foreseen Gift as a way of getting out of the publishing deal. In fact, as Gift was published by RCA, either it came under the existing option, which wasn't renewed, or the advance was paid before Gift was released. besides which, The Mission remained with RCA for their first album so what's to gloat about?

Eldritch's earnings for the year - It was simply too early to tell how much he'd be making without the others. He certainly wouldn't have made much by this stage and most of it would have been an even split as so many of the songs were co-written.

The court settlement - By all accounts, it never went to court.

[Nizzy]

Working my way through the old UTRs as I said earlier and have now got to issue 10, where - as referred to above by copper, referring to a separate quote in issue 11 - Eldritch writes in issue 10, in the piece on guitar-playing:

"Thus it was that I ended up playing a lot of guitar on the records, including for example the main guitar parts on Temple Of Love, through The Reptile House in its entirety, to all the instruments on Floodland (apart from the This Corrosion solo and the saxophone on Dominion)."

Well given that, as I wrote on page one of this thread, I had always assumed Eldo played absolutely nowt on Floodland and had wondered for years who the army of New York sessionpersons on the LP were, I now feel a bit of a tit.

Cheers for all the replies and welcomes.

[markfiend]

My speculation on the two Sisterhoods is as follows:

The split (between Wayne and Andrew at least) was at first fairly amicable. Between them they cook up the scheme to both call their new band "The Sisterhood" as a way to garner publicity; the vicious backbiting, both in the music press and in the songs, was all part of the smoke and mirrors.

It works as well as any other theory IMO.

[Being645]

My speculation on the two Sisterhoods is as follows:

The split (between Wayne and Andrew at least) was at first fairly amicable. Between them they cook up the scheme to both call their new band "The Sisterhood" as a way to garner publicity; the vicious backbiting, both in the music press and in the songs, was all part of the smoke and mirrors.

It works as well as any other theory IMO.

Can't imagine that, otherwise they had not needed to split up. And in my perception at some point, Wayne, apparently, believed he might be able to get the upper hand over Andrew ... at any cost and by whatever ghastly means necessary. He was at error ... and caused the end of any smoke and mirrors thing, he might formerly have cherished to be a practicable option (at least in his greedy imagination ...) - and not only to his own disadvantage, but to the worst possible scenario to happen ...

And - in my funny imagination - they had discussed their ideas for lyrics and possible strategies openly before. So that Andrew had to make sure, Wayne - who apparently had turned out to be absolutely not trustworthy - won't seize ideas he wasn't able to produce or even reproduce himself.
(following the assumption, Floodland already existed as a rough concept but wasn't taken for serious by Wayne at first. So Gift was prepared as sort of smoke and mirrors, indeed, not as much for the public as for Wayne and his companions).

And all of this within a context of a contract with Warner ... who would as well be aware of what happened, somewhat befuelling the situation in order to become the most benefiting third party.

[copper]

(following the assumption, Floodland already existed as a rough concept but wasn't taken for serious by Wayne at first. So Gift was prepared as sort of smoke and mirrors, indeed, not as much for the public as for Wayne and his companions).

I always took the This Corrosion line "Floodland and driven apart" as a pretty self-explanatory remark towards Wayne. Also, Rain From Heaven comes with the 'As we walk on the Floodland' phrase, which is rather indicative of the fact that if nothing more, Von was at the time at least toying with some of the lyrical concepts that would be featured on Floodland.


Also, Torch, a Left on a Mission and Revenge track, could always be read to form a certain continuation with Rain From Heaven.

Would he walk upon the water
If he couldn't walk away?

--

As the water flows over the bridge (we forgive as we forget)
As we walk on the floodland (as the day is long)
As we walk on the water (as the day is long)
We forget

--

"Do the floodland album with me or take a hike."

[mh]

Nah, it's a lot more basic than that (although I like the sound of Fiendy's conspiracy theory). Wayne wanted to go populist, Eldritch wanted to do the "I've drawn them in, now it's time to hit them with the real agenda" thing, and the two directions were incompatible. The fact that the recent tours had probably burned Eldritch out might be relevant too.

By all accounts it actually was amicable enough to begin with - a case of "this isn't working out so let's just go separate ways". It only got nasty with the whole Sisterhood thing, and Wayne's cluelessness has probably more blame to shoulder for that than anything else. If it wasn't for that I really wouldn't have been too surprised to see a "special guest guitars by..." credit on Floodland.

[Dr Avalanche]

I saved this post from the Dominion Mailing list. It's written by Alex Shirley; present during the mixing sessions of the album.
It was posted 19-4-2008

[Dominion] Bassline on floodland

Someone asked me a while back if Morrison played bass on this Corrosion and I couldn't answer because I was in the studio mixing session.

Well a memory came back to me this morning on "Driven Like The Snow".
There were multiple tracks of bass on this record (at least eight I remember). Now the bass main line was a pretty linear repetitive affair, in the final mix (I think) we hear a doubled tracks of bassline for a fatter sound, mixed from any one of these tracks.... From what I remember this was days of work.

Now there was a particular one track which was pretty jazzy that played around the main bassline. How can I say? it's a bit like Mark King's style from the band "Level 42". Now I'm pretty certain Larry Alexander commented (who would have been present at recording) stating somewhat like "that's great base from Patricia isn't it?"... and he was right.

In the final mix I think you can still hear it in the background being brought in and out every now and then, it's subtle. At the time I though wouldn't it be great if he'd done a mix with this bass as the primary track (would have made a great 12" dance-along .

I would have thought the other bass-lines were Morrison as well, but that's speculation.

Without prejudice (in case my memory is proven wrong, it was a long time ago in small studio far far above Topman at Oxford Circus).

Alex

So Patricia did play basslines that were used at least on one song on Floodland.

[Being645]

Nah, it's a lot more basic than that (although I like the sound of Fiendy's conspiracy theory). Wayne wanted to go populist, Eldritch wanted to do the "I've drawn them in, now it's time to hit them with the real agenda" thing,

Are you sure? Comparing Floodland with the m*****s' first release, leaves quite the contrary impression with me.

... and the two directions were incompatible. The fact that the recent tours had probably burned Eldritch out might be relevant too.

That much's for sure ...

By all accounts it actually was amicable enough to begin with - a case of "this isn't working out so let's just go separate ways". It only got nasty with the whole Sisterhood thing, and Wayne's cluelessness has probably more blame to shoulder for that than anything else. If it wasn't for that I really wouldn't have been too surprised to see a "special guest guitars by..." credit on Floodland.

You say so - I wonder ... ... no, I don't wonder - I just don't believe it, sorry ...

Anyway, I don't feel such an urgent need to know all the
details of these unpleasant occurrences, either. There are
so many theories and contradictory statements ... after all
it's very long ago and what counts for me now is now.

[markfiend]

Nah, it's a lot more basic than that (although I like the sound of Fiendy's conspiracy theory). Wayne wanted to go populist, Eldritch wanted to do the "I've drawn them in, now it's time to hit them with the real agenda" thing,

Are you sure? Comparing Floodland with the m*****s' first release, leaves quite the contrary impression with me.

Oh definitely. Wayne wanted to get into Smash Hits, Andrew was far more "serious".

[Being645]

... funny kind of Smash Hits what followed afterwards, though ... ...

I'm eternally grateful, Andrew never got on that train. : :: :: : ...

The m*****n will most presumably never get through to me, just like a million other bands.
Can well be, they do some good stuff. It just doesn't touch me. Not a matter of choice, I think.
And it is not so that I didn't give it a try.

[Big Si]

Nah, it's a lot more basic than that (although I like the sound of Fiendy's conspiracy theory). Wayne wanted to go populist, Eldritch wanted to do the "I've drawn them in, now it's time to hit them with the real agenda" thing,

Are you sure? Comparing Floodland with the m*****s' first release, leaves quite the contrary impression with me.

Oh definitely. Wayne wanted to get into Smash Hits, Andrew was far more "serious".

From the interviews I read he certainly enjoyed being featured in it. They did a very good behind the scenes feature from the Dominion video shoot.

[stufarq]

"Thus it was that I ended up playing a lot of guitar on the records, including for example the main guitar parts on Temple Of Love, through The Reptile House in its entirety, to all the instruments on Floodland (apart from the This Corrosion solo and the saxophone on Dominion)."

Thanks for that. So now we have to find out who played the sax and the solo.

So Patricia did play basslines that were used at least on one song on Floodland.

Damn. Just when it looked like things were getting sorted out. I'll bet she played the sax too.

[stufarq]

A friend of mine recently met Lucas Fox in Paris. Former Motörhead drummer and enginer on Floodland told him interesting things. Among others:
1) When Wayne left the Sisters, he took with him music, equipment and instruments. Andrew went mad and paranoiac about it. He took the habit to hide a lot of things, in a secret room just like the villain in a James Bond movie.
2) Lucas Fox played all the guitars and keyboards parts on Floodland (it was 20 years ago that I was wondering who played on the album but nobody could tell me), and even wrote some material; he was of course never credited for that.

Sigh. Back to square one.

[BeyondThePale]

Ahaha, sorry for that!
Of course, I'm note sure at all Lucas Fox was saying the truth. But at least it answers to some questions.
If you want I can ask my friend to tell me again more precise things. He talked with Lucas Fox a long time.

[paint it black]

Lucas Fox was guest drummer with Sisters support during the post Marx leg of 85. Explains a lot on timing

Three five zero zero

[DOZMEISTER]

Around 1990 i was guitar tech for a band that booked into Comforts Place studio in Oxford to record a single. On the wall there were the usual promo pics of various artists that had recorded there, one of which was a photo of Eldritch and Morrison. I asked what they did and was told only Andrew was there and did alot of keyboard work for Floodland as the studio had a very good reputation for their keyboards set up.

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

Lucas Fox was guest drummer with Sisters support during the post Marx leg of 85. Explains a lot on timing

Three five zero zero

If you're referring to when he filled in for Brett Rixon when the latter left the Scientists, that was immediately prior to Marx's departure. The post Marx leg (initially in Europe) had no fixed support.

[Guedzilla]

Wowwww this is old!
Never imagined I'd already written something here.

So, just to update...

-There are 2 versions of Colours right, the Gift and the Floodland one, with different vocals.
-There is definetly a real bass recorded on DLTS, it's small funky riffs coming up on the end of every 2 compasses on the left or the right. The rest might be just midi basses. Which brings me to
-I really believe that everything is mostly programmed via midi, not executed by hand and recorded on tape.

There was even a reference to this somewhere from (I think) Von saying that thanks to this he could do a song like 1959.

Now I'll go clean up my dusty HL profile...

[Skip Intro]

Interesting. Thanks for clearing that one up.

So, did Carl Harrison (or any other of James ray's minions) play at all? Or were they just for TV appearances?

We've still got at least a saxophonist to identify and while Eldo presumably did most of the keyboards, was he a good enough pianist to play 1959?

And, of course, if Patricia didn't play bass (and I'm only saying if) then is Von claiming that he did that himself too?

Electronic bass, not an actual bass guitar, was used on some if not all the songs that feature a bassline.

Didn't Eldo openly say he recorded most of Floodland alone in a flat in Manchester?