Swine flu

[Headingly]

A vaccine is almost ready!

[Back in time]

Better swine flu than standard flu that nobody mentions.

Um why? The main difference is that we haven't had time to build up any resistance to swine flu.

And "standard" flu gets mentioned quite a lot, usually with the statistics for the numbers who died in the last epidemic or the fact that current swine flu figures are pretty much on a par with average December flu cases.

Call me paranoid, but I do believe that pharmaceutical industry needs a new flu here and there. PR and media can do many things, but this is all my imagination.

[markfiend]

Call me paranoid, but...

You're paranoid.

What you're suggesting is that tens of thousands of doctors and scientists collude with "the pharmaceutical industry" (actually a large number of competing companies) in allowing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and not one whistle-blower has ever shown up?

[Bartek]

i don't want to take his or your side but rumours repeated by talking heads in every kind of media, mass panic, and looking, by both of this mentioned before, for strong emotions, and greed what is a main part of human nature - yes that's about pharma. ind. - can turn some, ok real thing, but relatively small danger into something like we have now.
i'm not denying a facts but geez it's just a flu as we see many pipls survived this, and only things that it needs is regular treatment.

btw. did you heard about attack of black death in China ?
now that's a real story.

[Big Si]

All I can say is that once it mixes with the dreaded 'Glesga Lurgie' yeez ur aw fecked! Us Weegies will have to repopulate the world.

Fancy a Harem Mr Blast

[stufarq]

Call me paranoid, but...

You're paranoid.

What you're suggesting is that tens of thousands of doctors and scientists collude with "the pharmaceutical industry" (actually a large number of competing companies) in allowing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and not one whistle-blower has ever shown up?

Funnily enough there's an article in today's Independent about how ROCHE have persuaded the WHO to uphold their patent on Tamiflu and prevent poor countries from manufacturing cheaper copies. As these countries can't generally afford to buy Tamiflu, they could be very seriously affected by swine flu.

Of course, that's not the same as a conspiracy to manufacture a flu in order to sell drugs and I'm not a fan of Johann Hari's writing but it seemed pertinent to the discussion.

[Erudite]

Fancy a Harem Mr Blast

Oh lordy, it's the fat slags!

[markfiend]

Funnily enough there's an article in today's Independent about how ROCHE have persuaded the WHO to uphold their patent on Tamiflu and prevent poor countries from manufacturing cheaper copies. As these countries can't generally afford to buy Tamiflu, they could be very seriously affected by swine flu.

It's hard to see why pharmaceutical companies would bother with the huge investments they make in research unless they were allowed exclusive rights to make money from the drugs so developed. Hence drug patents.

It's far from a perfect system, obviously, but I think it's a fault with capitalism generally rather than with pharmaceutical companies in particular.

[mh]

I think it's a fault with capitalism generally rather than with pharmaceutical companies in particular.

The problem with capitalism is the capitalists.

Funnily enough there's an article in today's Independent about how ROCHE have persuaded the WHO to uphold their patent on Tamiflu and prevent poor countries from manufacturing cheaper copies. As these countries can't generally afford to buy Tamiflu, they could be very seriously affected by swine flu.

Nothing too wrong with upholding a patent, and at least it ensures that the people who get it are getting the genuine article rather than After Dinner Mints. I'd be interested in seeing if there is any hard evidence of poorer countries not getting Tamiflu (possibly at reduced rates?) or if it's just a conspiracy theory or sensationalist journalism.

[Bartek]

no it's about human nature, human nature only.

even wise Frank Z. said: "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff."

[stufarq]

Nothing too wrong with upholding a patent, and at least it ensures that the people who get it are getting the genuine article rather than After Dinner Mints. I'd be interested in seeing if there is any hard evidence of poorer countries not getting Tamiflu (possibly at reduced rates?) or if it's just a conspiracy theory or sensationalist journalism.

According to the article (and, not having researched it, I'm not saying I believe or disbelieve it and would again draw attention to the author, for those familiar with his work) something similar happened with HIV drugs in South Africa, reuslting in an amendment to patenting laws whereby they could be suspended in an overwhelming healthcare emergency. Apparently the WHO doesn't consider swine flu to be one of those, which is interesting in itself. Some economist goes on to predict vast numbers of deaths because of lack of access to expensive drugs and Johann Hari looks grim in his photo. But then he always does.

His argument, to be fair, is that patenting should be different for life-saving medicine, especially when the drugs companies don't (he says) actually pay for the research and development (government funded labs do) but only step in at the last minute to fund the manufacture, clinical trials and marketing - all important and expensive stuff but not actually creative and therefore not worthy of a patent.

Allegedly.

As for "genuine article rather than After Dinner Mints", I'm sure we all know that most competing drugs are more or less identical just with a different brand name. And it's the name that bumps the cost up. (And what's wrong with after dinner mints anyway? I'm rather partial to the odd After Eight.)

[Dark]

All I can say is that once it mixes with the dreaded 'Glesga Lurgie' yeez ur aw fecked! Us Weegies will have to repopulate the world.

A few thousand new students coming this September. I'll do my research on whether this is a viable plan and get back to you.

[markfiend]

As for "genuine article rather than After Dinner Mints", I'm sure we all know that most competing drugs are more or less identical just with a different brand name. And it's the name that bumps the cost up. (And what's wrong with after dinner mints anyway? I'm rather partial to the odd After Eight.)

Aye this is true.Example: Nurofen: £2.19 for 16 tablets, generic no-name ibuprofen: 32p for 16 tablets.

[Back in time]

Call me paranoid, but...

You're paranoid.

What you're suggesting is that tens of thousands of doctors and scientists collude with "the pharmaceutical industry" (actually a large number of competing companies) in allowing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and not one whistle-blower has ever shown up?

Thanks, I needed that.

Basically, what I am saying is that a marketing machine can make even the simple kind of flu look terrible in order to sell as much of the drugs in question. By the way, I also own a small supply of Tamiflu, although I was quite sure that I will never need it, but pressure was too strong and I am weak.

Best thing is that there is nothing to disclose, flu exists, it is highly contagious and it can be fatal (as can almost any disease if not treated properly) - PR just adds the flavour and Voila here is the most dangereous disease in the world - buy drugs.

I am not sure that hundreds of thousands of people died from swine flu.

[Back in time]

i don't want to take his or your side but rumours repeated by talking heads in every kind of media, mass panic, and looking, by both of this mentioned before, for strong emotions, and greed what is a main part of human nature - yes that's about pharma. ind. - can turn some, ok real thing, but relatively small danger into something like we have now.
i'm not denying a facts but geez it's just a flu as we see many pipls survived this, and only things that it needs is regular treatment.

btw. did you heard about attack of black death in China ?
now that's a real story.

Yes, Something like that

[markfiend]

Thanks, I needed that.

Basically, what I am saying is that a marketing machine can make even the simple kind of flu look terrible in order to sell as much of the drugs in question. By the way, I also own a small supply of Tamiflu, although I was quite sure that I will never need it, but pressure was too strong and I am weak.

You're welcome.

Sadly I don't think you're paranoid with those suspicions...

[Headingly]

especially when the drugs companies don't (he says) actually pay for the research and development (government funded labs do) but only step in at the last minute to fund the manufacture, clinical trials and marketing - all important and expensive stuff but not actually creative and therefore not worthy of a patent.

He knows less than he thinks. I've worked in the pharmaceutical industry for fifteen years and every compound, biological or vaccine I've ever worked on has come from privately funded sources. Those clinical trials aren't cheap either - I've just worked on one which followed a whole 10 patients for two weeks and cost £260,000.

When it takes an average of $1 billion to take a compound from the lab to the market(*) you can see why some companies get twitchy about patents. You can also see why they need the blockbusters too.

(* Including the cost of the ones which never make it)

I'm sure without too much digging you'll be able to find stories of misconduct but I've only ever found the people I've worked with to be honest and conscientious.

[stufarq]

Fair enough. To be honest, that sounds a little more realistic.

Unless, of course, you're part of the conspiracy...

[MadameButterfly]

To be honest this swine flu or Mexican flu as they call it here, although it's claiming lives it's just a flu. The common flu that comes around every year also kills people depending on the immune system of those involved. Now from my point of view is why is it killing so many people? When we hear of the ways to make yourself safer as in not getting it, it boils down to hygiene. Washing of your hands and in the work place and public places keeping things clean like the telephone, keyboards and doorknobs that everyone uses without thinking twice. They have even decided to not give Tamiflu to everyone that gets it, only those in the risk groups..pregnant women and the younger generation. However there is enough for all of us living in this country to purchase. So this global swine flu is a certain drama or the drama the media is making it. The older generation is not dying from it and they are normally prone to risk factor group only this time not. What worries me more is...

btw. did you heard about attack of black death in China ?
now that's a real story.

Yes Bartek I did hear about that and the black death scares me much more than this flu.

So keep hands and things clean, don't cough in anyone's face and of course maybe we should all just roll our own and not pass it on?

[stufarq]

What she said.