Ancient Egypt and the Sisters

[Toaster Mantis]

Let's talk about the references to ancient Egypt in the Sisters' music. First thing there comes to mind's of course the Eye of Horus on the cover of Vision Thing, then there's Dominion (Mother Russia) quoting Percy Bysshe Shelley's Ozymandias which is of course about Ramses II.

Here's my take on it:

The excerpt from Ozymandias is used in Dominion can easily be interpreted as used to cast the superpowers of the Cold War in the same light as Ozymandias' empire which ultimately left little but the faintest trace of ruins. Now, the interesting thing here is that while this can be seen as predicting the fall of the Soviet Union, in 1992 the Sisters went on to use a similar symbol to represent the United States under the Bush Sr. administration!

Of course, there is another dimension here to the use of the Eye of Horus on Vision Thing: Bush Sr. was the one to popularize the phrase "New World Order", used there to mean the post-Soviet world order with the United States as the sole superpower but also associated with conspiracy theories concerning the secret society known as the Illuminati. (whose emblem is/was the All-Seeing Eye!) What is there to conclude of all of this? Probably something with how no order lasts forever, not the Soviet Union, not the United States, not whomever may or may not pull the strings behind the scenes...

(by the way, the symbol on First and Last and Always' cover also looks vaguely Egyptian to me, though according to a thread I found on the forum it's apparently a Japanese noble family's crest?)

[_emma_]

There is also the "Weird as Isis, wide as Egypt" phrase in "Slept", though I don't know what it stands for.

[numan]

Finland Red, Egypt White

[Ozpat]

Walk like an Egyptian. Cover not played live so far.

[Bartek]

egyptian cowboy (by electric six). as one mentioned above, cover not played so far.

[markfiend]

The excerpt from Ozymandias is used in Dominion can easily be interpreted as used to cast the superpowers of the Cold War in the same light as Ozymandias' empire which ultimately left little but the faintest trace of ruins. Now, the interesting thing here is that while this can be seen as predicting the fall of the Soviet Union, in 1992 the Sisters went on to use a similar symbol to represent the United States under the Bush Sr. administration!

I actually think that the use of Ozymandias in Floodland is also as a representation of the USA. It's easy to forget that in the 80s Reagan pushed the USSR to the brink of nuclear war. The 80s was the era of When The Wind Blows, of Threads, it looked then a lot like the whole sorry mess was going to blow up. (And Floodland has, after all, been characterised as "the album for the end of the world".)

If the war had come (and I still think we only avoided it by sheer luck) then there wouldn't have been a great deal left of either the USA or USSR.

[weebleswobble]

Eldritch no longer makes records coz he's in de-Nile

thankyouverymuch

[mh]

Eldritch no longer makes records coz he's in de-Nile

thankyouverymuch

oh bollix.

[Being645]

...
(by the way, the symbol on First and Last and Always' cover also looks vaguely Egyptian to me, though according to a thread I found on the forum it's apparently a Japanese noble family's crest?)

There's a large post on this issue here ...
http://www.myheartland.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19345

[Toaster Mantis]

I actually think that the use of Ozymandias in Floodland is also as a representation of the USA. It's easy to forget that in the 80s Reagan pushed the USSR to the brink of nuclear war. The 80s was the era of When The Wind Blows, of Threads, it looked then a lot like the whole sorry mess was going to blow up. (And Floodland has, after all, been characterised as "the album for the end of the world".)

Yeah, maybe I should have clarified that I think it equates both of the superpowers with Ozymandias' empire because there's also references to the United States (mobile homes in Memphis, the Daughters of the American Revolution) and a suggestion there's very little substantial difference between either regime. ("a white house in the red square")

See also the reference to 2 worlds colliding in Lucretia, then there's the "lone and level sands" possibly also meaning the barren wasteland left after a nuclear war!

Another thought: Maybe the Egypt references in the Sisters' lyrics and imagery are supposed to be ironic use of Christian imagery like the band name, in a subverted Biblical reference kind of way? Never Land mentions "a ticket to Syria", which could be an allusion to Saint Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus only that this time the narrator missed out on such an experience! To bring it back to Dominion and its allusions to Ozymandias, wasn't Ramses II the pharaoh who oversaw the enslavement of the Hebrews in the Book of Exodus?

There's a large post on this [First and Last and Always cover art] issue here ...
http://www.myheartland.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19345

Emblem of bus conductors in Leeds? Dang, it looked so... occult. Well, a lot of things that look like they're of arcane origin often turn out to be surprisingly mundane.

[markfiend]

To bring it back to Dominion and its allusions to Ozymandias, wasn't Ramses II the pharaoh who oversaw the enslavement of the Hebrews in the Book of Exodus?

Yeah, I thought so too, but Wikipedia says no:

The traditional bible chronology dates the Exodus to c.1447 BCE. The traditional early date is based on Edwin Thiele's chronology for the reigns of the Israelite and Judahite kings[14] in the context of 1 Kings 6:1, which dates the start of the construction of Solomon's Temple to the fourth year of King Solomon's reign, which it says was 480 years after the Exodus. The identification of the pharaoh who was reigning at this time depends on the specific Egyptian chronology that is being used for this time period. The possibilites include three or four pharaohs of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt, Thutmose II (c.1493-1479 BCE), Hatshepsut (1479-1458 BCE), Thutmose III (1479-1425 BCE), and Amenhotep II.[15]

Of course the book of Exodus doesn't help, it merely calls the Pharaoh "Pharaoh". And there's the added complication that the Exodus, in all likelihood, has no historical veracity...

Anyhoo.

I like the "ticket to Syria" idea of the road to Damascus. I always had Neverland linked to terrorism in my mind. (Smart money has always blamed the Syrians for the Lockerbie bombing—but of course that happened after Floodland's release.)

[Toaster Mantis]

I like the "ticket to Syria" idea of the road to Damascus. I always had Neverland linked to terrorism in my mind. (Smart money has always blamed the Syrians for the Lockerbie bombing—but of course that happened after Floodland's release.)

Then again, didn't I just reason that Floodland also predicted the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of American world hegemony?

[Being645]

... I always had Neverland linked to terrorism in my mind ...

So have I ... at that time almost everybody thought about terrorism and
what it's about and whether it were an option or not ...

For myself I've come to the decision that I entirely object violence - because
(thanks to a wonderful childhood) I know the causes and effects deep into
my bone ... it's a blind waste of everything we're given ...

[Being645]

Another thought: Maybe the Egypt references in the Sisters' lyrics and imagery are supposed to be ironic use of Christian imagery like the band name, in a subverted Biblical reference kind of way? Never Land mentions "a ticket to Syria", which could be an allusion to Saint Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus only that this time the narrator missed out on such an experience!

Nice idea ... ... in my understanding it's always been like having fulfilled all the suggestions and reached all the possible goals, we're offered and asked to reach and fulfil by our current culture ... but we don't get what we need. It doesn't work, so give it up after all ... and there is not yet some find another way because after having believed in a thing so deeply and maybe having supported and been into and through and with it all your way and with your heart, you're just exhausted when you come to realize it's been useless ...

[GC]

I thought it was all just a big Goth statement.

[Being645]

.... What does Goth mean?

[mh]

Nah, it's about falling through space and moving so fast that when you come to Earth you go right through and come out the other side.

[Being645]

Like a tunnel?

[MadameButterfly]

No, like a long black hole in space! You are in the comet or whatever spaceship you like, it doesn't matter as the ride through to the other side is what counts.

[Being645]

hhm ... nice fairy tale ...

[MadameButterfly]

no, it's real trust me!

[Being645]

What's the use of trust?

[MadameButterfly]

the HL effect and that of what the real world is made of.

[Being645]

oh, I think I can already feel it ...

[Ozpat]

as the ride through to the other side is what counts.

...and the fact of never landing.