The Election Thread

[markfiend]

And I don't think agreeing that foreign criminals should be deported is amazingly right-wing, but there we go!

The question said foreign-born. Which could conceivably (and has in at least one case of which I am aware) include someone who immigrated aged three, and doesn't speak the language of their "native" country. Just saying.

The "who should I vote for" thing had me on Green, then LibDem. I'm not voting Green I'm afraid; while they're probably closest in terms of political and economic views in general, they've got a lot of nonsensical policies like opposition to fluoridation; they are quite deeply anti-science.

[Erudite]

they've got a lot of nonsensical policies like opposition to fluoridation; they are quite deeply anti-science.

You should try living with my missus...

Actually, this probably goes a long way to explaining why she's in the process of being the ex-missus.


Probably wasn't of interest to yourself, but did anyone catch the Scottish debate on Sky News this morning?
Talk about squabbling children!

[Norman Hunter]

WTF was that BNP broadcast? Sitting there telling me that our servicemen and women didn't die to make this country multicultural? That's exactly why they sacrificed their lives. Don't slur the memory of my Grandad who went over on D-Day and fought his way to Berlin by telling me that s**t.

BNP go f**k yourselves.

[DeWinter]

The question said foreign-born. Which could conceivably (and has in at least one case of which I am aware) include someone who immigrated aged three, and doesn't speak the language of their "native" country. Just saying.

The "who should I vote for" thing had me on Green, then LibDem. I'm not voting Green I'm afraid; while they're probably closest in terms of political and economic views in general, they've got a lot of nonsensical policies like opposition to fluoridation; they are quite deeply anti-science.

I hadn't thought of that, actually. It is rather clumsily worded, thinking about it. Foreign nationals convicted of a violent crime would perhaps be my opinion.Despite my views I can't quite jusitfy deporting someone for not paying their Council Tax. Probably because I might soon join them, if it goes up any further.
I think I will vote Green as the least worst option. I'm not fooled by Cameron, or his cousin many times removed Clegg. Neither have ever had a job outside politics, and be damned if we need any more like that.

[Norman Hunter]

Big name pulls out of support for Labour;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8646601.stm

[moses]

WTF was that BNP broadcast? Sitting there telling me that our servicemen and women didn't die to make this country multicultural? That's exactly why they sacrificed their lives. Don't slur the memory of my Grandad who went over on D-Day and fought his way to Berlin by telling me that s**t.

BNP go f**k yourselves.

They 'sacrificed' their lives because the government of Britain, along with that of France, had an alliance with Poland. Nothing to do with the making of or the restricting of a multi-cultural Britain.

[Norman Hunter]

Nothing to do with the making of or the restricting of a multi-cultural Britain.

I beg to differ, but it's not for now.

[markfiend]

Neither have ever had a job outside politics, and be damned if we need any more like that.

While I agree with you to some extent, the problem is, who do you get then?

Given the media's current obsession with youth and appearance, it looks like if you're not party leader by your early forties, you're past it in terms of electability. Just remember the way Michael Foot was treated by the press.

So there's no time for someone to have had another career outside politics. It's a problem for which I don't have a solution.

[boudicca]

Just remember the way Michael Foot was treated by the press.

You are my dad!

What did we think of Gordon's "bigotted" remarks today? Some have been saying that'll lose him the election - for me personally, it's cemented him as the man to vote for. The woman was a bigot, IMHO. But she did come out with a classic...

"all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?"

Let me hazard a guess - Eastern Europe?

[Francis]

'Traditional' Labour and 'Bigotted' go hand-in-hand don't they? Page 3 of The Sun was always a firm favourite on The Miners' picket lines.

Moreover, the Trades Union movement was far too adept at shooting itself and its youth in the foot, killing off apprenticeships and YTS with demands of equal pay whilst protesting about maintaining pay differentials.

My primary disappointment with the last 13 years is Labour's middle-class enchantment with a University education for all. Result: huge gap in home-grown tradesmen filled by skilled immigrants and a labour market flooded with debt-ridden graduates and no room for the indigenous average-achievers.

[stufarq]

'Traditional' Labour and 'Bigotted' go hand-in-hand don't they? Page 3 of The Sun was always a firm favourite on The Miners' picket lines.

What has bigotry got to do with pictures of topless women? Bigotry is the refusal to tolerate any views that conflict with your own. It's popularly (but incorrectly) used to mean "racism" but neither definition comes close to Page 3.

[Francis]

Ok. I guess my point was that at a time when the rank and file of the Labour movement was fighting for its livelihood, its daily pick-me-up was at odds with the 'enlightened' views of its political leaders.

[markfiend]

My primary disappointment with the last 13 years is Labour's middle-class enchantment with a University education for all. Result: huge gap in home-grown tradesmen filled by skilled immigrants and a labour market flooded with debt-ridden graduates and no room for the indigenous average-achievers.

They should get a f*cking degree in plumbing

[Erudite]

What did we think of Gordon's "bigotted" remarks today? Some have been saying that'll lose him the election - for me personally, it's cemented him as the man to vote for. The woman was a bigot, IMHO. But she did come out with a classic...

I think Brown lost the election some time ago, but to be fair I would probably have used far stonger language.


Personally, I think clegg is the most dangerous of the three - he has a certain Blairishness that gives me the fear...

As for immigation, I think Doug Stanhope rather says it all - the telephone radio interview is priceless.

I was also very disappointed by Salmond's grandstanding - 50k of party funds for what was always going to be an act of futility.

Looking forward to tonight's debate, though, as the knives will definitely be out.

[Norman Hunter]

I think Brown lost the election some time ago, but to be fair I would probably have used far stonger language.

He's blown it.

I'm worried, very worried that the future is blue.

[Norman Hunter]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ ... 650478.stm

[Erudite]

The third debate is concluded and IMHO Clegg definitely got the better of both Cameron and Brown.
Brown's final speech was dismal even by his standards.

[DeWinter]

They should get a f*cking degree in plumbing

The established plumbers are struggling now. For the same reason the IT workers are. There's no shortage of native ones, but a major shortage of native ones willing to work for the wages employers want to pay. There was never any shortage of manual labour, no fields were going unpicked, or factories unstaffed. But British workers were used to a decent wage for hard work, and unwilling to do that for the bare minimum. Hence the enthusiasm for the Eastern Europeans amongst employers. Check any farm or factory, you'll find the wages have gone down, and the workforce changed completely.
I don't understand why the socialists dont quite grasp that mass immigration has been used for nothing other than keeping down the wages of the already low paid. There were no unemployed French, Germans or Italians flocking here for our minimum wage factory/farm work. Because despite high comparative unemployment, they expected a decent wage for their work. The former USSR doesn't. So by supporting it, you've helped reduce the wages of the already low-paid. And been very happy to condemn them as racists if they dare suggest that they be treated preferably in their own country.

[stufarq]

Ok. I guess my point was that at a time when the rank and file of the Labour movement was fighting for its livelihood, its daily pick-me-up was at odds with the 'enlightened' views of its political leaders.

Fair enough.

[moses]

Blah blah blah blah....... more capitalist s**t f**king nonsense, each and everyone one of them. IMHO.

[markfiend]

I don't understand why the socialists dont quite grasp that mass immigration has been used for nothing other than keeping down the wages of the already low paid. [...] So by supporting it, you've helped reduce the wages of the already low-paid. And been very happy to condemn them as racists if they dare suggest that they be treated preferably in their own country.

No I understand that all too well. What I don't understand is why it's acceptable to blame the immigrants, who after all are being exploited in the situation, rather than blaming those doing the exploiting.

[DeWinter]

No I understand that all too well. What I don't understand is why it's acceptable to blame the immigrants, who after all are being exploited in the situation, rather than blaming those doing the exploiting.

I suppose because in some peoples minds they are the equivalent of what used to be called "scab labour". There's nothing stopping said migrants standing with the British workers and refusing to do that kind of work for such low money, poor conditions, and more often than not zero-hour contracts. But why would they when they are still doing far better generally than they would do back home?

[Francis]

My primary disappointment with the last 13 years is Labour's middle-class enchantment with a University education for all. Result: huge gap in home-grown tradesmen filled by skilled immigrants and a labour market flooded with debt-ridden graduates and no room for the indigenous average-achievers.

They should get a f*cking degree in plumbing

Not sure what your point is there Mark, but I sense a disagreement. My views are simple. Academic education is fine for those to whom it suits (myself included) and should be supported. But my parental experience of looking into our education system, as opposed to being a part of it, has made me realise that it fails too many of our kids. My sons were not academically inclined and school had nothing of interest to offer them. Consequently, from 13 onwards they were wasting their time and our money. Why do we persist in attempting to fill unreceptive minds with seemingly useless information instead of giving them worthwhile trades? Why? Cos it's cheaper to stick them in front of a computer and give them a multiple choice test which somehow counts towards the equivalent of 3 GCSEs than to show them how to cement a pile of bricks or plug some plastic pipes together.

[DeWinter]

My sons were not academically inclined and school had nothing of interest to offer them. Consequently, from 13 onwards they were wasting their time and our money. Why do we persist in attempting to fill unreceptive minds with seemingly useless information instead of giving them worthwhile trades? Why? Cos it's cheaper to stick them in front of a computer and give them a multiple choice test which somehow counts towards the equivalent of 3 GCSEs than to show them how to cement a pile of bricks or plug some plastic pipes together.

Because seperating children into academic and vocational sounds too much like grammar schooling. And we aren't allowed to have that back because John Prescott's feelings got hurt the last time.

[markfiend]

Francis: A "degree in plumbing" is the way I think the government want the education system to go. I agree with your opinion; Kerry teaches students on "foundation degree" courses who are barely literate. It's a waste of their time (and hers).

Anyhoo, interesting article on the Grauniad:

As a young man Cameron looked out on the social carnage of pit closures and mass unemployment, looked at Margaret Thatcher's government and thought, these are my people. When all the debating is done, that is really all I need to know.