Andrew Eldritch and Peter Hamill (yes PETER HAMMILL)

[orchoid]

Was just watching the.sisters.of.mercy.30.8.83.loft.club.berlin vid for the 1st time.
There's a link to it on the site somewhere.
Don't know exactly where sorry.

Anyway, twas really enlightening hearing the Eldritch
without all the echo / re-verb that followed later on
(no pun intended).

It made me REALLY think / realise is just how much
Eldritch owes to Peter Hammill of Van Der Graaf Generator
(70's 'prog rock' band - but a hell of a lot More than that! - feckin labels!).

Now.. Dont get me started on Peter Hammill and how much everybody is indebted to him without even realising it...
no dont!
(especially after that last toke or three).

OK, don't say I didn't warn you then...

Peter Hammill sang in baritone as does Eldritch but he used
countertenor a lot also to great effect.
But it was the WAY he sang which was TOTALLY original in its time.
The guy was / is WAY ahead of his time.
Quite a cult-size fanbase unfortunatley
(for him not me - my heroes have to be esoteric).

Now, around 1975 (my GAD! how OLD must I BE?!) he did a solo album
'Nadirs big chance' describing it as an album written by his 'punk' alter ego
'Nadir', who was rebelling against everything which had 'gone down'
before him musically, politically, culturally, blah blah

'Nadirs big chance' jussssst preceded the pistols and the UK punk explosion
in '76 and I'm pretty sure, that at that time, the word 'punk' wasn't being
used in the context that Hammill was using it (in the UK at any rate).

Around that time I couldn't help noticing that suddenly, as Punk emerged you could hear vocalists that sounded as if they'd been studying how Hammill projected his vocals for years.
It seemed that his unique and unprecedented vocal style
had became the 'punk' way to sing.

Thing is, Peter Hammill was very unlikely to be known by these bands
(like, yeah they were ALL listening to 70's prog rock, one of the main things that punk was rebelling against!) and yet somehow they were all adopting his style! What was THAT all about?
Peter Hammills voice picked up through the ether in some way?

OR, is some punk singer somewhere gonna stand up and say "OK, it's a fair cop! I'm a right hypocrite, see, there's this 70's 'Prog Rock' singer thats ACE an' I'm gonna sing like him!

Then comes the post punk era, Goths, Beardstroking Shoegazers blah blah.. and they'e EVEN MORE HAMMILLESQUE!!!

Now to me... this is all a bit wierd.
I think so to this day.

'Big' recording artists that immediately spring to mind as owing a lot to Peter Hammill are Bowie and John Lydon amongst MANY others. Whether they realise it or not (if that makes any sense).

The sad thing is, the GENIUS that IS Peter Hammill gets about 0% of the credit, recognition and appreciation that he deserves!

Yep... I quite like Peter Hammill. You should too!
(if you do, then, nice one!, and have you noticed all this too?)

Now...

who's this Eldritch bloke again?

[weebleswobble]

Now if anyone can find a link between and Mark Hamill

[Quiff Boy]

herr blast is going to love you

[godgirl]

OR, is some punk singer somewhere gonna stand up and say "OK, it's a fair cop! I'm a right hypocrite, see, there's this 70's 'Prog Rock' singer thats ACE an' I'm gonna sing like him!

Oh, Peter Hammill is great. A true original. I've just liked him for years. If you listen to him, his solo albums, I'm damn sure Bowie copied a lot out of that geezer. The credit he deserves just has not been given to him. I love all his stuff. - John Lydon 1977

http://www.fodderstompf.com/ARCHIVES/RE ... 7.html#int

[Meat Whiplash]

http://www.myheartland.co.uk/viewtopic. ... 509#538509

[orchoid]

http://www.myheartland.co.uk/viewtopic. ... 509#538509

Hey! a kindred spirit! Gooooood to meet you!

I couldn't help noticing that you posted this only a few hours before my canaboidal ramblings in the early hours. Talk about vibrations /thoughts travelling through the ether.

[orchoid]

herr blast is going to love you

Hey.. I still have the utmost respect for da man though.
Just an observation.

[orchoid]

OR, is some punk singer somewhere gonna stand up and say "OK, it's a fair cop! I'm a right hypocrite, see, there's this 70's 'Prog Rock' singer thats ACE an' I'm gonna sing like him!

Oh, Peter Hammill is great. A true original. I've just liked him for years. If you listen to him, his solo albums, I'm damn sure Bowie copied a lot out of that geezer. The credit he deserves just has not been given to him. I love all his stuff. - John Lydon 1977

http://www.fodderstompf.com/ARCHIVES/RE ... 7.html#int

heyyyyyyyyy!!!! am SPEECHLESS!!!!

[Izzy HaveMercy]

heyyyyyyyyy!!!! am SPEECHLESS!!!!

Almost didn't notice that.

IZ.

[markfiend]

Hello and welcome by the way orchoid

[Meat Whiplash]

http://www.planetrock.com/Article.asp?i ... spid=35830

[stufarq]

Peter Hammill sang in baritone as does Eldritch

I don't think you can claim singing in baritone as an influence. People sing in the register that is comfortable for their voice.

'Nadirs big chance' jussssst preceded the pistols and the UK punk explosion in '76 and I'm pretty sure, that at that time, the word 'punk' wasn't beingused in the context that Hammill was using it (in the UK at any rate).

Long, long before. The term "punk rock" was coined as early as 1971 when Dave Marsh described ? and the Mysterians as a "landmark exposition of punk rock" in Creem magazine. It grew in popularity over the next few years until the likes of Aerosmith, New York Dolls, Springsteen and Bay City Rollers were all being described as punks. At least two magazines were launched using the name Punk in 1973 and 1975. The scene at CBGBs was christened "punk" by Aquarian magazine in 1975 and that was a direct influence on the name being applied in Britain as Malcolm McLaren specifically wanted to imitate what he'd witnessed there.

[Meat Whiplash]

stew is correct on the 'P' word bit and as much as I'm a fan of Mr. E and PH I hear no similarities, I would say that his combo the VdGG are very Gothic so there is a connection

PH is a far better vocalist and singer - FACT!

[markfiend]

Good history lesson there thanks Stu

[itnAklipse]

PH is a far better vocalist and singer - FACT!

That depends entirely on your definition of 'better' - facts need not apply.

[orchoid]

stew is correct on the 'P' word bit and as much as I'm a fan of Mr. E and PH I hear no similarities, I would say that his combo the VdGG are very Gothic so there is a connection

You may have taken my point a bit literally.
Its more an atmosphere, phrasing, projection, delivery, energy kinda thing than literally 'sounding' the same.
The actual sound is only a SMALL PART of vocalising is it not?

Try get a listen to perhaps his solo Chameleon in the shadow of the night album.
'The Black Room' in particular.
There are loads of other instances
Many instances which I could refer to here if I wasn't so senile, or could be arsed, sorry.
(please understand, its not ALL the time - Peter Hammill has a MYRIAD of
different voices /styles that he calls upon in his art).

Gotta stand by my observation that 'punk' hadn't been used in
quite the context that PH was using it at that time.
Sorry if we're clashing there a bit old boy.

Steve

[stufarq]

Good history lesson there thanks Stu

Have to admit most of the details came from Wikipedia. I knew the basic shape of the story but not all the names and dates (although, believe it or not, I did kniow about the Bay City Rollers). Nevertheless, I will happily bask in your veneration. And no, that's not rude.

[orchoid]

Good history lesson there thanks Stu

Have to admit most of the details came from Wikipedia. I knew the basic shape of the story but not all the names and dates (although, believe it or not, I did kniow about the Bay City Rollers). Nevertheless, I will happily bask in your veneration. And no, that's not rude.

Ahhhh if we're going the Wikipedia route then:-

"The first British citation of the word "punk" in relation to music in the Oxford English Dictionary is dated January 1976 (citations from the USA date from 1971), yet Nadir's Big Chance was released in February 1975. Hammill can therefore lay claim to being the first British musician to use the term in his album's sleeve notes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir%27s_Big_Chance

[orchoid]

Hello and welcome by the way orchoid

Thanks a lot markfiend

[stufarq]

Ahhhh if we're going the Wikipedia route then:-

"The first British citation of the word "punk" in relation to music in the Oxford English Dictionary is dated January 1976 (citations from the USA date from 1971), yet Nadir's Big Chance was released in February 1975. Hammill can therefore lay claim to being the first British musician to use the term in his album's sleeve notes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir%27s_Big_Chance

So it's not original if the Americans said it first? (And lots of them had been saying it for several years.) Surely the point is that the term had already been coined in relation to music and was in fairly common usage. Lenny Kravitz was probably the first person to mention his mother in album sleeve notes but he didn't invent her.

Edit: Oh, and if I might correct my first post, the term "punk rock" was used at least as early as 1970, not 1971, in the Chicago Tribune.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

I thought the term was already used in ancient Rome, since it is a well-known fact that in a sewer tunnel near Via Appia historians found chiselled on the walls the words

"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC"

Never trust the Wiki, trust me instead

IZ.

[James Blast]

PH is a far better vocalist and singer - FACT!

That depends entirely on your definition of 'better' - facts need not apply.

that's the end of that then, a better person than us has spoken

[Being645]

PH is a far better vocalist and singer - FACT!

That depends entirely on your definition of 'better' - facts need not apply.

that's the end of that then, a better person than us has spoken

floorshow ... ...

[orchoid]

Ahhhh if we're going the Wikipedia route then:-

"The first British citation of the word "punk" in relation to music in the Oxford English Dictionary is dated January 1976 (citations from the USA date from 1971), yet Nadir's Big Chance was released in February 1975. Hammill can therefore lay claim to being the first British musician to use the term in his album's sleeve notes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir%27s_Big_Chance

So it's not original if the Americans said it first? (And lots of them had been saying it for several years.) Surely the point is that the term had already been coined in relation to music and was in fairly common usage. Lenny Kravitz was probably the first person to mention his mother in album sleeve notes but he didn't invent her.

Edit: Oh, and if I might correct my first post, the term "punk rock" was used at least as early as 1970, not 1971, in the Chicago Tribune.

One word... 'Context' my good man... Context is all

[orchoid]

floorshow ... ...

- What does "floorshow ... ..." mean?


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