'Afterhours' and 'Train' - is there a reason...?

[Rev]

So I do hope that they someday will have accumulated enough stuff that fits nowhere that it is just natural for them to put it all on a CD (and call it 'Dominion of Wanderers Lost' or 'Some Tracks Wander by Chance' or whatever).

It's obvious what they're waiting for..."A Slight Case of Overbombing - Greatest Hits Volume Two".

[playboy]

yeah, i know, but on "some girls" you've got multiple sessions recording for example, they are just from some "independent period". there's no rule that b-sides or extra tracks must be from the same session as the a-side or particular album. body and soul 12" is just from wea-falaa period of time and should be, without any fear, added to falaa extras.

Yes, on some girls there were multiple session recordings cause that was the intention, putting all singles on one album.
On the FALAA cd the intention was to get the tracks from the FALAA session, and from that album only. If you want to get the album and the singels (and the b-sides from them) from that album which is Walk Away and No Time To Cry then you can buy this cd and get all these tracks.
They are all done at Strawberry studios with Dave Allen.
If you own the cd you can see notes from the studio in which you can read that Poison Door, On Thr Wire etc were recorded for the album. They choose the songs afterwards and some of them appeared on b-sides instead. Inlcuded in also the sleeves for the singles for Walk Away and No Time To Cry.

So, no, sorry, but Body And Soul has got nothing to do with First And Last And Always in any way.
Also, it has got to do with legal stuff and contracts etc.. you cannot put songs on an album which is not recorded and/or produced by that albums producer.
Many may not like the production of Body And Soul and First And Last And Always are, even if the music is Sisters, a work of Dave Allen. Body And Soul is not.

[markfiend]

Also, it has got to do with legal stuff and contracts etc.. you cannot put songs on an album which is not recorded and/or produced by that albums producer.
Many may not like the production of Body And Soul and First And Last And Always are, even if the music is Sisters, a work of Dave Allen. Body And Soul is not.

Wait, what? FALAA is a work of Dave Allen? Are you on glue?

[mh]

You can't really speak of intention for SGWBM - the tracks were never recorded with a view to collecting them together on a compilation, nor probably even with any thought that the band might last another few weeks, so any such intention never existed.

Not being able to put tracks on an LP that were not recorded or produced by the LP's producer? That's just plain old-fashioned wrong. Could name you plenty of examples there, including Floodland for starters.

Body & Soul clearly belongs to the 84/85 period of the Sisters, which is the same period that FALAA belongs to. It's wrong IMO to equate periods of a band's evolution with specific LPs; there are often valid and crucial periods for which an LP did not even exist.

[Aazhyd]

Some Girls Wander By Mistake features all independent releases. The Body and Soul EP is a Warner release, so doesn't belong on SGWBM. Unfortunately, it fits nowhere. Good chance it will never officially see the light in CD or downloadable form.

[lachert]

Unfortunately, it fits nowhere.

good god. again, it fits perfectly to "wea/ hussein/ falaa" period. period

[stufarq]

you cannot put songs on an album which is not recorded and/or produced by that albums producer.

Yes you can. Happens all the time. Such as on, er, FALAA, which includes b-sides produced by A. Eldritch rather than Dave Allen.

[playboy]

Also, it has got to do with legal stuff and contracts etc.. you cannot put songs on an album which is not recorded and/or produced by that albums producer.
Many may not like the production of Body And Soul and First And Last And Always are, even if the music is Sisters, a work of Dave Allen. Body And Soul is not.

Wait, what? FALAA is a work of Dave Allen? Are you on glue?

Well, the producer does far more than one might think. If you hire a proper producer then it is actually he who creates the sound and atmosphere, and the one who takes the best out of the performers.
If an expensive producer was hire just for fun and wasn´t important the I do not think that Andrew would be the one spending money for nothing.

If you don´t believe in producers than you gan get you neighbour to produce it...

Music producers can be likened to movie directors, in that the roles are very similar to their specific industries. Successful producers are responsible for the sound and feel of the tunes. They are part artist and part businessmen, and oversee almost every element of the music production process, from song selection to the finished product.

Dave Allen has been an influential part of the rock scene since the '80s.

[playboy]

You can't really speak of intention for SGWBM - the tracks were never recorded with a view to collecting them together on a compilation, nor probably even with any thought that the band might last another few weeks, so any such intention never existed.

Not being able to put tracks on an LP that were not recorded or produced by the LP's producer? That's just plain old-fashioned wrong. Could name you plenty of examples there, including Floodland for starters.

Body & Soul clearly belongs to the 84/85 period of the Sisters, which is the same period that FALAA belongs to. It's wrong IMO to equate periods of a band's evolution with specific LPs; there are often valid and crucial periods for which an LP did not even exist.

Floodlands? The bonus tracks are Torch, was relaeased on This Corrosion which is from Floodland. Colours and Emma dito. Neverland, which also appears on Floodland. All tracks emerged from the Floodland album recording reels.

Body And Soul belongs to the 84/85 period, yes maybe. The band saw the record more of an introduction to the new member and both Body.... and Train were written at the end of 1983. When they wrote the songs they had no plans to release them on an album.
What year singles and/or albums are released or recorded is not important. And in any way it was some seven months between the recording of Body... and FALAA.
I get your point and would also like to get these tracks on cd.
But not on FALAA. Body and soul was a non-album single.

Body And Soul can be found on the greatest hits compilation, so it is released. So there is no need to put that on as an extra. Of course they want you buy both cd,s if you want to get Body And Soul...
Left are Train and Afterhours, both b-sides to a single which title track does not appear on First And Last And Always. And a nre recording of Body Electric. Cannot see why that would appear on FALAA.

Hope you get my point. Which clearly is the same as the Sisters point. Clearly Body And Soul has got nothing to do with FALAA to them....

[Being645]

@ playboy

You might be right in as far as a producer can
make jam of your cherries or marmelade ... if you let him ...

[playboy]

you cannot put songs on an album which is not recorded and/or produced by that albums producer.

Yes you can. Happens all the time. Such as on, er, FALAA, which includes b-sides produced by A. Eldritch rather than Dave Allen.

Yes, this is correct. The band returned to Genetic Studios and recorded Blood Money and Bury Me Deep, which were produced by Andrew and were intended as b sides for the next single No Time to Cry. Appearing on that single makes the qualified them as bonus tracks for FALAA don´t you think? I think so. And apparently the Sisters also.

All other tracks were recorded by Dave though, all in all he recorded 18 songs with them.

[mh]

Floodlands? The bonus tracks are Torch, was relaeased on This Corrosion which is from Floodland. Colours and Emma dito. Neverland, which also appears on Floodland. All tracks emerged from the Floodland album recording reels

Floodland - produced by Alexander/Eldritch except Corrosion produced by Steinman and Dominion produced by Steinman/Alexander/Eldritch.

Emma, by the way, most definitely did not emerge from the Floodland reels. And had a completely different producer again - Hugh Jones.

None of this is any big secret, you can just check the booklet notes on your copy of Floodland.

Or what about Killing Joke's Brighter than a Thousand Suns if you need a second example. Original vinyl LP had 8 tracks, 7 produced by Chris Kimsey and one produced by Chris Tsangarides.

Legality has absolutely sweet F-all to do with it unless there is a specific clause in the contract.

If an expensive producer was hire just for fun and wasn´t important the I do not think that Andrew would be the one spending money for nothing.

Or it might be the case that WEA tried to force a producer on the band and Dave Allen was the least objectionable to them...

[playboy]

Floodlands? The bonus tracks are Torch, was relaeased on This Corrosion which is from Floodland. Colours and Emma dito. Neverland, which also appears on Floodland. All tracks emerged from the Floodland album recording reels

Floodland - produced by Alexander/Eldritch except Corrosion produced by Steinman and Dominion produced by Steinman/Alexander/Eldritch.

Emma, by the way, most definitely did not emerge from the Floodland reels. And had a completely different producer again - Hugh Jones.

None of this is any big secret, you can just check the booklet notes on your copy of Floodland.

Or what about Killing Joke's Brighter than a Thousand Suns if you need a second example. Original vinyl LP had 8 tracks, 7 produced by Chris Kimsey and one produced by Chris Tsangarides.

Legality has absolutely sweet F-all to do with it unless there is a specific clause in the contract.

If an expensive producer was hire just for fun and wasn´t important the I do not think that Andrew would be the one spending money for nothing.

Or it might be the case that WEA tried to force a producer on the band and Dave Allen was the least objectionable to them...

You are right, sorry, I mixed that up, it was a long time ago you see. They recorded a version of Emma with Dave Allen during the recording of First And Last And Always and we have been taking mainly about that album which is another reason I mixed it all up.
Anyway, Emma appeared on a b-side from a single which came from Floodland if Im not wrong again. Which is why it appears as a bonus on Floodland.
Cannot remember where it was recorded, I remember it was recorded pretty much live in the studio and that there even was a smokemachine in the recording room, Andrew wanted to try this to get a certain feeling to the vocals.

David Allen was chosen by Andrew. They knew eachother a bit, Dave´s also from Leeds, and Andy liked his previous works.

[paint it black]

with all your insider information you're likely a badly chipped PiB. If only any of it were true

Emma was recorded for JP in 1984 and made no7 in the festive 50 that year

Emma was re-recorded in Jan 1988 in studio but with live vox and ice in Kilburn Theatre

I don't rate B&S

[markfiend]

with all your insider information you're likely a badly chipped PiB. If only any of it were true

Emma was recorded for JP in 1984 and made no7 in the festive 50 that year

Emma was re-recorded in Jan 1988 in studio but with live vox and ice in Kilburn Theatre

I don't rate B&S

A voice of sanity.

Which is nice

[playboy]

with all your insider information you're likely a badly chipped PiB. If only any of it were true

Emma was recorded for JP in 1984 and made no7 in the festive 50 that year

Emma was re-recorded in Jan 1988 in studio but with live vox and ice in Kilburn Theatre

I don't rate B&S

I am what??

Well, I´ll stop sharing info if that is what you want...
I do not read any books or articles of the band or study them hard. It is all memories and some memories fade so I may be wrong about some things..... I have, though, followed the band very close for a very long time and apart from the things I forgotten I do have both infos and recordings known to only a few...

Since you all seems to have all answers as to who recorded and produced what and when and why and for what purpose, it is all strange to me that it is so hard to understand that the Body And Soul EP has got absolutely nothing to do with First And Last And Always.

Finally, there are more studio recordnings than above mentioned but I figure you know about those allready..

[playboy]

with all your insider information you're likely a badly chipped PiB. If only any of it were true

Emma was recorded for JP in 1984 and made no7 in the festive 50 that year

Emma was re-recorded in Jan 1988 in studio but with live vox and ice in Kilburn Theatre

I don't rate B&S

I am what??

Well, I´ll stop sharing info if that is what you want...
I do not read any books or articles of the band or study them hard. It is all memories and some memories fade so I may be wrong about some things..... I have, though, followed the band very close for a very long time and apart from the things I forgotten I do have both infos and recordings known to only a few...

Since you all seems to have all answers as to who recorded and produced what and when and why and for what purpose, it is all strange to me that it is so hard to understand that the Body And Soul EP has got absolutely nothing to do with First And Last And Always.

Finally, there are more studio recordnings than above mentioned but I figure you know about those allready..

See, i was wrong again..... i missed a word...... what it should read was:
there are more studio recordings of EMMA than above mentioned but I figure you know about those allready...

[Being645]

... ...

well, there might have been people deciding what singles and songs and recordings go on
what singles and albums for whatever reason and whenever they were written or produced ...
but still you can't say Body And Soul had "nothing to do with First And Last And Always", for
this can - if at all - only be true with regard to recording and production matters but not with
what made this specific era of The Sisters of Mercy ...

[Quiff Boy]

things to consider:

1) b+s was the sisters first wea record

2) it was an ep, not a single

thus:

it was intended to be the band's "toe in the water" of a major label deal, a kind of "look how our indie sales so far will convert for you guys! we're a good signing"

it was never anything to do with the as-yet-unwritten album

falaa was written and assembled explicitly for release as their debut album

the ep an dthe album were never connected from conceptual, contractual or artistic points of view

its got nothing to do with dave allen or production credits... it's got more to do with when the sisters wrote & recorded it, and where they were up to in their career path

the b+s ep is essentially a sandboxed release. it's not a like the early "we release singles because we cant afford to do an album", and it was never intended to be a teaser for the album

ergo it doesnt "fit" on SGWBM and it doesnt fit on FALAA

it just falls between the cracks...

[markfiend]

the Body And Soul EP has got absolutely nothing to do with First And Last And Always

...except for being recorded by the "classic line-up" of Eldritch, Marx, Hussey, Adams. Maybe I should draw a diagram...

Also, bear in mind that Eldritch is on record saying that he had nothing to do with the re-releases. Basically the record company decided that, giver they no longer had any contractual ties to the Sisters, they could do what the fŭck they liked with the albums. Including faking the Never Land (full version) included on the Floodland CD.

Quite frankly had I known when I bought them that the re-releases had been done without Eldritch's involvement, permission, or even knowledge, I'd have probably downloaded them rather than forking over the wedge.

[playboy]

the Body And Soul EP has got absolutely nothing to do with First And Last And Always

...except for being recorded by the "classic line-up" of Eldritch, Marx, Hussey, Adams. Maybe I should draw a diagram...

The "classic line-up" as you call them are just that; a line-up.
I am perfectly aware who has been in the band.

I´m in a recording and touring band myself. I remember one year when we releases a single. After its release we began to work on a album. A new work. A new project. An album is more than just a bunch of songs.
You cannot connect whatever songs you like to that album, even if we got the same line-up and the same record company.
You must understand the difference between line-ups, year of recording etc.

Maybe someone should draw read a diagram over the working process of the album that would be First And Last And Always.

If you still think that everything that Andrew did with Wayne, Craig and Gary is connected to FALAA then I suggest we end the discussion right away with no more comments or replies.

[mh]

If you still think that everything that Andrew did with Wayne, Craig and Gary is connected to FALAA then I suggest we end the discussion right away with no more comments or replies.

I don't think anybody thinks that. It's more the case that B&S, FALAA, the Black October tour, etc are all connected with a specific period of the band's history.

For example, in the unlikely event that a multi-disk deluxe edition of FALAA was ever released (HA!), it wouldn't be unreasonable for it to include material like the 4 B&S tracks, the FALAA B-sides themselves, the rejected Wayne songs, the KoHD demo, Wide Receiver, the 84 Peel session, possibly anything that could be scraped together from LoMaR (wonder if Torch was ever demoed?) and a DVD of Wake.

Like I said, it's not that this material is all connected with FALAA, but taken together all of it is connected with the 84/85 incarnation of the band, so on those terms - and from a historical archiving perspective - it belongs together.

[markfiend]

If you still think that everything that Andrew did with Wayne, Craig and Gary is connected to FALAA then I suggest we end the discussion right away with no more comments or replies.

As you seem to be unwilling to actually read what anyone else writes, fine by me.

[Quiff Boy]

while falaa was the 84/85 era, i always considered it more 85

temple = 83
b+s = 84
falaa = 85

that's how it always felt to me anyway (regardless of the actual timelines...)

[Being645]

I beg to differ ... for example YCBTO it as close to Alice to me as it is to Ribbons or Susanne .... ...