What was Eldritch's biggest mistake ?

[Prescott]

In terms of commercial success, though, I think it was in allowing the early 90's momentum to run out.

This. After Temple of Love and Under the Gun, the Sisters were on the brink of a major breakthrough. But he let it slip away.

Agreed. That's why I think SSV was such a damned fool mistake. I remember picking up the latest issue of Alternative Press magazine and him talking all this trash about Type O Negative (playfully in a way) it was right after Dark Harvest in Philly. He had everyone's attention again in a big way after booting the "too goth" bands, etc. Everything seemed lined up.

He could have easily pulled all the same stunts without the SSV debacle and still received the same amount of attention.

[Being645]

He could have easily pulled all the same stunts without the SSV debacle and still received the same amount of attention.

SSV was no debacle (not for me anyway, I think it's great) but a product he had to deliver! And that he did perfectly.

The amount of attention ... oh, I think "attention" was rather a mixed blessing at that time ... in the case of which SSV also made a few crucial points ... ...

[10-E Rabid]

Those white jeans

[million voices]

I think his biggest mistake was that after he broke up the band in 1985. He didn't then launch himself as a "solo" artist. Rather than as a re-incarnated Sisters. I think it would have given him more creative flexibility.

[markfiend]

That's why I think SSV was such a damned fool mistake.

Damn right.

Actually I think SSV is the best suggestion so far for Eldritch's Greatest Mistake â„¢

[10-E Rabid]

Yet, is SSV really a mistake. It's not like Andrew really intended to make that particular album a part of the Sisters artillery. In fact it was was made deliberately to fulfill the major label contract was it not? That makes it an honest mistake I would think. Whereas if he just made the bloody thing and said it was the forth album alonside the others and meant it and promoted it and all the gravey then it would be a mistake. In this case he undercooked it and didn't bother with the gravey.

[sultan2075]

Well, it's a mistake because it's the culmination of an extended series of actions that have made him radioactive to record labels.

I think he's very talented. I think his records could sell quite well with the right promotion behind them. If he put something new out, I'd buy copies for all my friends. But would I, as a record label, enter into a business arrangement with him? No. He's proved himself too mercurial for that. He's not a safe investment, at least not for the kind of money he is alleged to want.

[markfiend]

Especially when considered alongside Gift.

SSV wasn't the first time has released a record to play silly buggers with a record deal. And frankly he was lucky to get away with it the first time.

[10-E Rabid]

But wasn't Gift a reaction to Wayne and co almost claiming the Sisters title? It had nothing to do with the record label woes so SSV is not even in the same league as Gift. Gift has proven to be a decent album anyways, when compared to SSV.

[euphoria]

Gift has proven to be a decent album anyways, when compared to SSV.

Always good to be on the safe side in a discussion, right?

[markfiend]

The artistic merit of Gift is by-the-by.

Even Lou Reed only got away with Metal Machine Music once.

[sultan2075]

Especially when considered alongside Gift.

SSV wasn't the first time has released a record to play silly buggers with a record deal. And frankly he was lucky to get away with it the first time.

But with Gift he was just securing a publishing advance and naming rights, wasn't he? The SSV situation is a little different: he owed the label something (regardless of whether they had "exploited" him effectively)--a marketable TSOM record of some kind--and he gave them a piece of utterly unmarketable garbage the release of which would have cost them money. I applauded him at the time, because I was young and dumb and he was sticking it to "the man." Punk rock fundamentalism, as I alluded to elsewhere. But the truth is, all he was doing was shooting himself in the foot. A prudent man would have given them a cleaned-up soundboard recording or a b-side collection or a covers album or the like in order to satisfy the contract. SSV was imprudent.

Music is a business. It's also art. But a lot of people depend on the business-end of music to feed their families. Why would you risk getting stuck with SSV 2.0 by going into business with him?

[10-E Rabid]

I think a little more effort was put into Gift, whereas SSV could've been done by any other non-Sisters fan. At least Gift had songs, and SSV was Andrews quick ass answer to 1) the company and 2) his take on techno. If Gift was done in a similar fashion as SSV, in answer to Wayne and co, then Andy could probably have lost his battle. Instead it proved otherwise, which again SSV can't prove otherwise at all.

[10-E Rabid]

In addition, Gift songs are performed which lends merit in the fact that Andy does still recognize them. Can the same be said for SSV? I say no.

[Robson]

there's a shirt that says shut the f**k up

[Prescott]

Especially when considered alongside Gift.

SSV wasn't the first time has released a record to play silly buggers with a record deal. And frankly he was lucky to get away with it the first time.

But with Gift he was just securing a publishing advance and naming rights, wasn't he? The SSV situation is a little different: he owed the label something (regardless of whether they had "exploited" him effectively)--a marketable TSOM record of some kind--and he gave them a piece of utterly unmarketable garbage the release of which would have cost them money. I applauded him at the time, because I was young and dumb and he was sticking it to "the man." Punk rock fundamentalism, as I alluded to elsewhere. But the truth is, all he was doing was shooting himself in the foot. A prudent man would have given them a cleaned-up soundboard recording or a b-side collection or a covers album or the like in order to satisfy the contract. SSV was imprudent.

Music is a business. It's also art. But a lot of people depend on the business-end of music to feed their families. Why would you risk getting stuck with SSV 2.0 by going into business with him?

Agree with almost everything said here. Except that other labels did still show some marginal interest. I think he was asking for too many promotion clauses and too much money from the labels that showed interest in the '90's. I think SSV was a stupendous blunder, not only because of the nature of the (admittedly) terrible production, but also the leaking of the mp3's on the Internet about, what was it, a week before the album was to be released in Canada? That means they had already pressed who knows how many copies of the CD and either shipped them already, or were about to. How do I know? Tower records had a release date all that summer and on the day I went to pick it up in Toronto, they told me the record had been cancelled.

So he himself, proved the point about illegal downloads with SSV. Although there's no evidence that he uploaded the "songs" himself of course. Yet wouldn't it be interesting if between 1993 and 1997 he had other schemes to fulfill the contractural obligations to Warner, involving other sets of recordings, and those plans fell through - either because the demos were rejected, he hadn't performed on the material himself, or otherwise?

[Sita]

How can one suggest Gift was a mistake? It's a minimalist, mad masterpiece!

[abridged]

How can one suggest Gift was a mistake? It's a minimalist, mad masterpiece!

Agreed. Gift was great.

[Being645]

As a major record company or as a person who, say had won the first prize of some 10m with a lottery in the 1990ies, I had

* offered them a change from WEA/East West long before they parted, because it was obvious these two parties were no partners,
i.e. crucial interests of the band did not seem to be supported but undermined, rather, by the record company, such as the "Goth"
issue for example, and only for the sake of the next fast profit without looking at neither their own future interests nor those of the band. How silly.

* I'd have thought, this guy and his band would make some really great recordings, if you let them develop and give them the time and means they need.

* Watching their development in the early 1990ies would have convinced me the time has come and I'd have to have a talk with them ...
At first, not to really negotiate anything, but to check who one is actuallly going to deal with and how about their health and their actual condition and direction.

* Had that turned out more or less convincing, and to be a bit more on the safe side before suggesting a conclusive contract, I'd have gone to a few of their gigs ... but

Good Heavens! ... No!!!

If they find it necessary to live out that dashed hopes and frustrated expectations thing on stage in a dimension and a way as such
and, even worse, towards their own audience, instead of making something real of it - what would they think a record they would make?
Cool, great shock rock??? What audience were they looking for? Well, of course, there's always an idiot who might find their performance
of resentful aggression an adorable and desirable perspective, or some other who needed to let off that same sort of steam ...
... but wasn't that just too mean?
... very, very sorry, for these guys, and in many respects, but they obviously needed some more time to come down ...
... I'd keep an eye and hope to see them later ...

Remark: Of course, The Sisters' record company would not think that way, they were pretty pleased with that outcome and - to the contrary - support this "strategy", hoping and waiting for and - I guess - even demanding some fascistically kicking masterpiece from the band as politically times were high. Thanks. In the following years, The Sisters moved their headquarters form Hamburg to anywhere and finally, their relation with WEA/EastWest ended with SSV. The term "SSV" in German language stands for "Summer Clearance Sales" ... another lovely joke, since that's what The Sisters had got in effect from their record company (and other bases) over the years. And they did orderly return the outcome: a few lovely views of some nice trees, a freight train, a drugsar, two in the nose, some lesson prescriptions for highschool kids and little more apart from the noise it made.

I'm soo glad these days are over. Nowadays, The Sisters really rock, and they do so with their musical capacities ...
it has cost them a lot and they had to do it without a record company. They succeeded. Not at last with the
unceasing support of their (recording and steadily complaining) fanbase.

They entertain, they enjoy. They still behave very badly, indeed. They wear some very loud shirts
and some very wrong trousers, they say, but I think they look perfect the way they are. They play
some legendary rock music ... and in their performances of today, they are stronger than ever ...
They have grown out of those strategies so apparently necessary back in the 1990ies.
And for their 30th Stage Anniversary they played Gift That Shines. XXX.

[deirfiur]

biggest mistake was not competing in x-Factor

[markfiend]

I didn't mean to imply that Gift was a mistake. I'm sure it shifted a fair few "units".

On the other hand, I'm thinking dispassionately about this, look at the Sisters' history with WEA:

Within two years of signing the original WEA deal, the band imploded, leaving two factions squabbling over the wreckage. IIRC Gift was an independent release, and the Mish went off to Mercury, so as far as WEA were concerned, they were left with just F&L&A and a couple of singles to recoup whatever investment they'd made in the Sisters when signing them.

OK Eldritch came back to WEA for Floodland, but he resolutely refused to tour in support of the album; like people said up-thread, the Floodland singles had heavy airplay at the time; I really think if a touring version of the Sisters had gone to the States in '87 or '88 we would be looking at a very different band today.

By the time the Sisters did tour again, in support of a weaker album, (and come on, admit it, everyone was disappointed with Vision Thing when it was released) it was too late, the gap had been too long, and the momentum had been largely lost. And don't forget that Eldritch only reluctantly agreed to get a band back on the road at WEA's insistence; they wanted to recoup some money after the budget and schedule over-runs for VT, and needed a tour to promote the album.

And then the next release was a compilation album, with the single promoting it being a remake of an early single. And then the release after that was a compilation album, with the single promoting it being some weird half-cover-version... and on the B-side, a remake of an early single.

I don't know about you, but by this point, if I were working at WEA I'd be getting a little nervous.

Beside the recordings, there's all the nonsense with the Public Enemy tour, which must have looked like a total cluster-fcuk to WEA, costing them an absolute fortune.

And then of course, he went on strike.

From WEA's perspective, it must have looked at this point as though they were dealing with an artist intent on sabotaging his own career at every turn. To come back to them (after what, three years?) with SSV must have looked to them like a deliberate slap in the face.

OK all this is ancient history, SSV is what, 15 years old now? But memories are long, and people don't like being made a fool of. Word gets around. No-one in the industry would have touched the Sisters with a ten-foot pole at that point. And given the state of the industry now, no-one will again; why would any record label invest anything in a band with that track record?

[million voices]

So to summarise Eldo's biggest mistake is the last 25 years (approx)

I think I would agree with that

[Prescott]

I didn't mean to imply that Gift was a mistake. I'm sure it shifted a fair few "units".

On the other hand, I'm thinking dispassionately about this, look at the Sisters' history with WEA:

Within two years of signing the original WEA deal, the band imploded, leaving two factions squabbling over the wreckage. IIRC Gift was an independent release, and the Mish went off to Mercury, so as far as WEA were concerned, they were left with just F&L&A and a couple of singles to recoup whatever investment they'd made in the Sisters when signing them.

OK Eldritch came back to WEA for Floodland, but he resolutely refused to tour in support of the album; like people said up-thread, the Floodland singles had heavy airplay at the time; I really think if a touring version of the Sisters had gone to the States in '87 or '88 we would be looking at a very different band today.

By the time the Sisters did tour again, in support of a weaker album, (and come on, admit it, everyone was disappointed with Vision Thing when it was released) it was too late, the gap had been too long, and the momentum had been largely lost. And don't forget that Eldritch only reluctantly agreed to get a band back on the road at WEA's insistence; they wanted to recoup some money after the budget and schedule over-runs for VT, and needed a tour to promote the album.

And then the next release was a compilation album, with the single promoting it being a remake of an early single. And then the release after that was a compilation album, with the single promoting it being some weird half-cover-version... and on the B-side, a remake of an early single.

I don't know about you, but by this point, if I were working at WEA I'd be getting a little nervous.

Beside the recordings, there's all the nonsense with the Public Enemy tour, which must have looked like a total cluster-fcuk to WEA, costing them an absolute fortune.

And then of course, he went on strike.

From WEA's perspective, it must have looked at this point as though they were dealing with an artist intent on sabotaging his own career at every turn. To come back to them (after what, three years?) with SSV must have looked to them like a deliberate slap in the face.

OK all this is ancient history, SSV is what, 15 years old now? But memories are long, and people don't like being made a fool of. Word gets around. No-one in the industry would have touched the Sisters with a ten-foot pole at that point. And given the state of the industry now, no-one will again; why would any record label invest anything in a band with that track record?

I completely agree with this. Which leads back to the one key thing you said, that perhaps he was intentionally destroying his music career. Now before anyone flips out, think about everything above carefully. Then ask yourself - what if the Sisters at some point around Floodland, became his second job? What if he was too busy with some other calling, and he found it almost impossible to do both any longer, so his stipulation for Floodland was no touring (too time intensive) and he only agreed to the promo videos and a few TOTP appearances and such.

Has not anyone else even thought about this? That the Sisters were little more than a Julia Child-like hobby for him after some point?

[Being645]

@ markfiend

Yeah, you say it, for them it was all about money and returns.

I don't know about others, but for me it looked very reasonable for Eldritch NOT to go on another tour within, yes deeply within, all that break-up and struggle things after say Wake ... and, hey, he didn't "return" to WEA with Floodland. He gave them an absolutely great record - one of the best of the time, one they are reissueing steadily over and over again ... as he had promised!!!

And then Vision Thing ... which was perhaps a shock at first sight, but hell, just listen!!! It's not for nothing, The Sisters have survived decades of record company ignorance by regularly playing live songs like Vision Thing, Ribbons, Detonation Boulevard, Something Fast, When You Don't See Me, Dr Jeep, More and I Was Wrong ...

But of course, record company people know each other like friends on facebook or the clique in the schoolyard ... so what would you expect ... WEA telling their companions, they had made a few mistakes? Lost a fight about the power, they initiated for the sake not of the band but their own fast profits ... otherwise completely regardsless of the well-being of the people involved ... Yeah, of course, record companies are capitalist entities and they have to make a profit for their shareholders who demand - and get - what they can and - deserve. The rest of the world, though, can count themselves happy, that people like Eldritch and bands like The Sisters showed strong enough to survive - physically, mentally, emotionally and as artists.

[Sita]

re. the second job - I would wish this was the case, but personally, I always had the impression, it was simply drugs. And that all the reasoning since was more like the fox and the grapes. But that is just my subjective feeling.