Chart success pre-Floodland

bangles · 07 Jun 2013, 15:04

Just wondering if any people here understand the UK Chart rules from 83-85?

If Temple of Love was suppose to be the 2nd biggest selling 12" of 83 behind Blue Monday, why didn't it bother the top 40? (I accepted the may be a fairly large tail of from the most successful to the 2nd most!)
But The Sisters seemed to have a large loyal fan base that would buy releases when they came out so why no hits? Particularly as JAMC, Echo, Cure, Smiths, Siouxise, Bauhas et all would regularly seem to chart...

Merciful Release not having the muscle might be a clue in 83 but surely being on a major should have pushed them higher in 84/85. I know we may be a bit biased around here but the songs seemed commercial enough? Or am I too biased!

07 Jun 2013, 15:23

I seem to recall from an old copy of Guinness Book Of British Hit Singles that the singles from First and Last and Always troubled the lower reaches of the top 75 but nothing was listed prior to that.

07 Jun 2013, 15:25

I had no idead TOL was the second highest selling 12" in 83.

paint it black · 07 Jun 2013, 18:36

I think that's only indy chart

going purely from memory B&S made 45, Walkaway made 40ish and NTTC made 60.

As i recall FALAA made top 10 for the north in the week of it's release

lazarus corporation · 07 Jun 2013, 19:07

Yes, ToL got to Number 1 in the Independent Chart for 1 week in November '83, but presumably continued to sell well for the remainder of the year (enough to make it the 2nd biggest selling independent 12" of 1983).

Meanwhile Blue Monday spent thirteen weeks at #1 in the Indie Chart in 1983 (and probably sold far more copies each week than ToL sold in it's 1-week top spot). It got to #9 in the mainstream chart, IIRC, partly helped by some mainstream exposure on ToTP (albeit a poor performance).

Big Si · 07 Jun 2013, 20:00

Nick Jones (who used to run their London Office and was later Ghostdances Manager and Label Boss) told me it had sold about 30K copies in the UK and helped the band get a publishing deal by the end of 1983. A&R Reps were hanging around and one of them convinced

to sign them all up to WEA.

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija · 07 Jun 2013, 22:10

One of the main reasons that the Sisters would have struggled to enter the main chart was the way sales were calculated and the way that singles were distributed.
An up and coming indie band such as TSOM in 1983 would never have been stocked in WH Smiths or Woolworths who always lagged behind the zeitgeist but, crucially, these stores had most of the terminals where chart sales were recorded.
Other bands mentioned from that era (Banshees, Bauhaus etc) were already on major labels who had distribution through the crucial stores. The Sisters' distribution network was such that their singles tended to dribble out rather than be launched in a blaze of publicity, spreading sales over a greater number of weeks.
Never the press favourites, and not having had a breakthrough TV appearance (for example)', TSOM's popularity grew by word of mouth over a twelve month period from Alice to TOL.
Unfortunately, when the band did get the WEA deal, the quality of the product was less commercial (B&S) and chart success eluded them.

stufarq · 07 Jun 2013, 23:53

paint it black wrote:I think that's only indy chart

going purely from memory B&S made 45, Walkaway made 40ish and NTTC made 60.

As i recall FALAA made top 10 for the north in the week of it's release

B&S 46
Walk Away 45
NTTC 63
FALAA 14

These were all on a major, which would suggest that even if it wasn't an indie single, TOL probably still would have missed the top 40. It may be relevant that Von only finally had a hit when he teamed up with Jim Steinman.

mh · 08 Jun 2013, 01:44

2nd behind Blue Monday could be a long long way behind in terms of sales figures (particularly when we're talking about an era when 12" singles were viewed as a "luxury" item - sales of any given 12" would have always been quite low whereas a decent performing 7" may have been enough on it's own to break a band). That aside, chart positions back then were derived from sales in a selected bunch of shops, so perhaps the ones chosen for that purpose didn't match well with the ones where ToL sold?

bangles · 10 Jun 2013, 21:56

That's one of the things I was curious about - was the fanbase so localized to Yorkshire & the north in general, that there wasn't enough chart return shops to make an impact.

I was thinking the fact they were able to play RAH showed they would have had a larger audience than the charts would've suggested but I guess more than a few might have traveled down too...

Lord Emsworth · 11 Jun 2013, 07:23

Blue Monday is apparantly the best-selling 12" of all time and not just 1983. Considering that it peaked at a comparatively meager #9 in the charts, it is not so unimaginable and implausible that Temple of Love really was the second best-selling 12" of 1983.

Doesn't prove it of course either.

stufarq · 11 Jun 2013, 16:29

Lord Emsworth wrote:Blue Monday is apparantly the best-selling 12" of all time and not just 1983. Considering that it peaked at a comparatively meager #9 in the charts, it is not so unimaginable and implausible that Temple of Love really was the second best-selling 12" of 1983.

Doesn't prove it of course either.

There was no 7" of Blue Monday so all of its sales were on 12". On the one hand that put its 12" sales mis ahead of any others but also hampered its overall chart performance as many people only bought singles on 7" and didn't buy 12" singles.

bangles · 11 Jun 2013, 21:46

In another but similar vein, I just finished Hooky's 'Unknown Pleasure' book and he mentioned in it how Joy Division & New Order never had to play the game due to being on Factory. He mentions Siouxise, The Furs & The Bunnymen & the way they'd have to do all manner of s**t to sell records on the say so of the majors. What strikes me as funny is that 84-85, they weren't pushed harder for success - more radio session, interviews, tv spots on The Tube, OGWT (earlier) - or was there a bit of them being awkward bastards that no one wanted to touch...

Randall Flagg · 11 Jun 2013, 22:34

bangles wrote:In another but similar vein, I just finished Hooky's 'Unknown Pleasure' book and he mentioned in it how Joy Division & New Order never had to play the game due to being on Factory. He mentions Siouxise, The Furs & The Bunnymen & the way they'd have to do all manner of s**t to sell records on the say so of the majors. What strikes me as funny is that 84-85, they weren't pushed harder for success - more radio session, interviews, tv spots on The Tube, OGWT (earlier) - or was there a bit of them being awkward bastards that no one wanted to touch...

Not sure of the exact dates here, but I'd say they were pushed pretty hard (whether by self or record company) during the latter part of 84

Recording sessions for FALAA Aug & Sep
34 date UK & European tour Oct & Nov

Somewhere in there Von got hospitalised too?

Speaking of the FALAA sessions - I recently made a trip out to the site where Genetic Studios once stood. I'll post that separately for anyone who's interested.

Flagg

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija · 14 Jun 2013, 23:16

FALAA was supposed to be out in time for the Black October tour though originally. I agree with Bangles that the contrariness (alleged or real) of the band would have helped to reduce some of the media pressure. Von had held out for a deal which left the band with a fair degree of control and the label weren't really sure of what to do with them.
Getting David M Allen in as producer was an attempt to make the sound more commercial but you couldn't really imagine Von costing up with Mike Reed on Swapshop on a Saturday morning and taking phone calls from eight year olds in the Home Counties. The March Violets performance on that show (post Simon) was the last nail in their coffin cred-wise.
Ultimately the Sisters were never going to be media darlings because, like Meursault, they refused to jouer le jeu.

stufarq · 15 Jun 2013, 00:20

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:you couldn't really imagine Von costing up with Mike Reed on Swapshop on a Saturday morning and taking phone calls from eight year olds in the Home Counties.

I dunno. I've seen that clip of him on a German kids' TV show talking about prostitution.

Being645 · 15 Jun 2013, 00:44

stufarq wrote:
Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:you couldn't really imagine Von costing up with Mike Reed on Swapshop on a Saturday morning and taking phone calls from eight year olds in the Home Counties.
I dunno. I've seen that clip of him on a German kids' TV show talking about prostitution.

Hhm, the main topic of that show was actually cutting [self-injury] ...

The issue of prostitution came up because of the question about the origin of the name of the band ... posed by a kid on the phone ...

stufarq · 15 Jun 2013, 01:27

Yeah, I couldn't remember the exact context (ie explaining the band name) when I posted but remembered shortly after. I don't think I knew the subject matter of the show. I'd always been under the impression that it was a typical Saturday morning kids' show. I only saw a clip, I think.

Being645 · 15 Jun 2013, 02:30

stufarq wrote:...
I'd always been under the impression that it was a typical Saturday morning kids' show. I only saw a clip, I think.

Yes, that's what it was - typical Saturday morning kid's show in Germany ... completely over-ambitious bullocks ...

stufarq · 15 Jun 2013, 16:27

Being645 wrote:
stufarq wrote:...
I'd always been under the impression that it was a typical Saturday morning kids' show. I only saw a clip, I think.
Yes, that's what it was - typical Saturday morning kid's show in Germany ... completely over-ambitious bullocks ...

Typical Saturday morning kids' shows in Germany must be a bit different to those in the UK then. A British Saturday morning show probably wouldn't talk about self-harm. That would more likely be done in a weekday evening documentary or possibly a weekday kids' show but the latter would only have happened more recently and certainly not at the time of the clip in question.

Being645 · 15 Jun 2013, 18:31

stufarq wrote:
Being645 wrote:
stufarq wrote:...
I'd always been under the impression that it was a typical Saturday morning kids' show. I only saw a clip, I think.
Yes, that's what it was - typical Saturday morning kid's show in Germany ... completely over-ambitious bullocks ...
Typical Saturday morning kids' shows in Germany must be a bit different to those in the UK then. A British Saturday morning show probably wouldn't talk about self-harm. That would more likely be done in a weekday evening documentary or possibly a weekday kids' show but the latter would only have happened more recently and certainly not at the time of the clip in question.

Yeah, but this was/is the typical Bravo generation addressed here ... elitist and dumb at the same time - and over-ambitious anyway ...

What 10-13 year-old would have their own TV in/and their own room in the 80ies? Not that many ...

Nikolas Vitus Lagartija · 16 Jun 2013, 14:57

Going back to @Bangles original point, the fact that B&S and WA made the 40s in the UK Singles Chart was no disgrace. Of the other groups he mentions, all had difficulty at times getting in the Top 40. Many songs now regarded as classics - the Banshees' Israel, Bauhaus' A Kick in the Eye, The Cure's Primary or Let's Go To Bed or KJ's Follow The Leader all failed to reach the Top 40' as did Empire Song And Lagartija Nick despite the fact that the BBC had allowed them onto TOTP anyway. The state broadcaster had belatedly decided that it should be pushing new music, to differentiate itself from the commercial sector at a time when Radio 1's funding was under threat. I would imagine that B&S may also have featured had it not been such a tuneless dirge which completely deflated any word of mouth hype that had begun to form in the media. Doubtless Von thought that he had made some very clever point at the time but it took the Mish's chart success before he would dance to the music industry's tune in order to exact his revenge.

LyanvisAberrant · 19 Jun 2013, 00:05

Being645 wrote:
stufarq wrote:
Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:you couldn't really imagine Von costing up with Mike Reed on Swapshop on a Saturday morning and taking phone calls from eight year olds in the Home Counties.
I dunno. I've seen that clip of him on a German kids' TV show talking about prostitution.
Hhm, the main topic of that show was actually cutting [self-injury] ...

The issue of prostitution came up because of the question about the origin of the name of the band ... posed by a kid on the phone ...

May I have a link to this? O.O

Being645 · 19 Jun 2013, 00:24

LyanvisAberrant wrote:
Being645 wrote:
stufarq wrote: I dunno. I've seen that clip of him on a German kids' TV show talking about prostitution.
Hhm, the main topic of that show was actually cutting [self-injury] ...

The issue of prostitution came up because of the question about the origin of the name of the band ... posed by a kid on the phone ...
May I have a link to this? O.O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_96ZnZsjcWY - That part is in German. It starts at 3:00. There's a transcription somewhere ...

LyanvisAberrant · 19 Jun 2013, 00:25

Being645 wrote:
LyanvisAberrant wrote:
Being645 wrote: Hhm, the main topic of that show was actually cutting [self-injury] ...

The issue of prostitution came up because of the question about the origin of the name of the band ... posed by a kid on the phone ...
May I have a link to this? O.O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_96ZnZsjcWY - That part is in German. It starts at 3:00. There's a transcription somewhere ...

Oh wow okay, I'll try find it xD