Indeed, but most people that have success with needle dropping discover that their transfers sound better than the digital counterparts, even when their transfers have been down-sampled to match the digital counterpart (16 bit 44.1 khz on CD).
I wonder what went on when SGWBM was put together. I assume the master tapes were used, or at least mint vinyl copies. The songs don't sound like they've been remastered, which is good, but their transfers are so lifeless and flat sounding that the compilation does a disservice to the band's back catalogue IMO.
Vinyl cuts not available on CD
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robertzombie
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I suppose I should add Mofi's Floodland LP to the list!
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Aazhyd
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The intro of Colours (Floodland) is not the same on LP / CD. On CD, it fades in, on LP, it starts at full volume. I prefer the LP version.
Only the Americans could have built a place like this in the middle of a jungle.
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psichonaut
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you just made me wonder how many years i don't listen Floodland...i don't remember Colours was thereAazhyd wrote:The intro of Colours (Floodland) is not the same on LP / CD. On CD, it fades in, on LP, it starts at full volume. I prefer the LP version.
thanks...my Lord...i'm unbeliver
tear up your pants for psicho...and jump on him
tear up your pants for psicho...and jump on him
I thought Colours was at the single of This Corrosion
'Are we the Baddies?'...
"Someday! Someday, everything you need, is just gonna fall out of the sky..." -A.E. Reading 1991
"Don't forget that most of the judges in witches trials had harvard degrees."
"Someday! Someday, everything you need, is just gonna fall out of the sky..." -A.E. Reading 1991
"Don't forget that most of the judges in witches trials had harvard degrees."
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Being645
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True. But first of all, Colours was on Gift ...iesus wrote:I thought Colours was at the single of This Corrosion
...http://sisterswiki.org/Colours_%28song%29
True, but i bought Gift after This Corrosion single
'Are we the Baddies?'...
"Someday! Someday, everything you need, is just gonna fall out of the sky..." -A.E. Reading 1991
"Don't forget that most of the judges in witches trials had harvard degrees."
"Someday! Someday, everything you need, is just gonna fall out of the sky..." -A.E. Reading 1991
"Don't forget that most of the judges in witches trials had harvard degrees."
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vicus
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Temple 92 can be found here:Petseri wrote:I think that I have the short versionof ToL92 on a German compilation. I will try to dig it out and check.Bartek wrote:Wiki says that Dr Jeep had/has same song on CD and vinyl. I got Dr Jeep CD, i can check that later.
TOL (original and '92) (short) is not available on CD.
http://www.allmusic.com/album/lost-prop ... 0000984590
btw: Is the ASCOO -Mix of Body&Soul really the same as the 12"-Version??
"Am Anfang wurde das Universum erschaffen.
Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen."
http://www.poison-door.net/
Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen."
http://www.poison-door.net/
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vicus
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+ Jim-Steinman-Mix (Cass.)robertzombie wrote:I've been trying to compile a list of all the tracks that were released on vinyl but haven't subsequently been released on CD (e.g. the Body & Soul b-sides).
I think I've got a complete list. There are a couple of times where 7" versions (e.g. This Corrosion) were released on promo CDs but not widely distributed, so I've included them.
Is this list correct?
[...]
This Corrosion 7" & 12"
[...]
"Am Anfang wurde das Universum erschaffen.
Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen."
http://www.poison-door.net/
Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen."
http://www.poison-door.net/
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robertzombie
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BODY AND SOUL
I've now transferred both Body And Soul singles, 7" and 12". The mixes of Body And Soul and Train are different on both singles, in both cases they are the same length. A Slight Case of Overbombing features the 7" mix of Body And Soul, which has more subdued and colder sounding drums. The 12" mixes of both tracks are brighter and more professional sounding, but the 12" is more compressed than the 7".
Body And Soul: The 12" mix has more drum FX, brighter lead guitar, and I think more vocal FX. The 7" mix features the aforementioned colder drum sounds, less FX on the snare, and slightly wispier vocal FX.
Train: The 7" mix again shares the same colder drum production (we're talking *slight* differences here) and a less open guitar sound in comparison to the 12". The 7" mix has a thicker bass EQ on Eldritch's voice.
Personally, I prefer the sound of the 12" mixes, they are more professional and cleaner sounding than the 7". However, the 7" has a greater dynamic range, despite the somewhat murky production.
[quote="Body And Soul 12", dynamic range values"]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR9 -0.18 dB -12.44 dB 01 Body And Soul.wav
DR8 -2.07 dB -12.13 dB 02 Body Electric.wav
DR11 -1.80 dB -13.84 dB 03 Train.wav
DR10 -0.45 dB -13.79 dB 04 Afterhours.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 4
Official DR value: DR10
==============================================================================================
[/quote]
[quote="Body And Soul 7", dynamic range values"]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: C:\Users\Robert\Desktop\7wav\
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -0.15 dB -13.95 dB 01 Body And Soul.wav
DR11 -0.49 dB -12.52 dB 02 Train.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 2
Official DR value: DR11
==============================================================================================
[/quote]
TL;DR: Everything on the Body And Soul singles is unique to vinyl with the exception of the 7" title track. There are two different mixes of Train.
I've now transferred both Body And Soul singles, 7" and 12". The mixes of Body And Soul and Train are different on both singles, in both cases they are the same length. A Slight Case of Overbombing features the 7" mix of Body And Soul, which has more subdued and colder sounding drums. The 12" mixes of both tracks are brighter and more professional sounding, but the 12" is more compressed than the 7".
Body And Soul: The 12" mix has more drum FX, brighter lead guitar, and I think more vocal FX. The 7" mix features the aforementioned colder drum sounds, less FX on the snare, and slightly wispier vocal FX.
Train: The 7" mix again shares the same colder drum production (we're talking *slight* differences here) and a less open guitar sound in comparison to the 12". The 7" mix has a thicker bass EQ on Eldritch's voice.
Personally, I prefer the sound of the 12" mixes, they are more professional and cleaner sounding than the 7". However, the 7" has a greater dynamic range, despite the somewhat murky production.
[quote="Body And Soul 12", dynamic range values"]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR9 -0.18 dB -12.44 dB 01 Body And Soul.wav
DR8 -2.07 dB -12.13 dB 02 Body Electric.wav
DR11 -1.80 dB -13.84 dB 03 Train.wav
DR10 -0.45 dB -13.79 dB 04 Afterhours.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 4
Official DR value: DR10
==============================================================================================
[/quote]
[quote="Body And Soul 7", dynamic range values"]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: C:\Users\Robert\Desktop\7wav\
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -0.15 dB -13.95 dB 01 Body And Soul.wav
DR11 -0.49 dB -12.52 dB 02 Train.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 2
Official DR value: DR11
==============================================================================================
[/quote]
TL;DR: Everything on the Body And Soul singles is unique to vinyl with the exception of the 7" title track. There are two different mixes of Train.
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markfiend
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Was never available officially on vinyl either.AshenLight wrote:"Driver"
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
—Bertrand Russell
—Bertrand Russell
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Izzy HaveMercy
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Always remember that CD mastering and vinyl mastering is done in a different way, apart from (to use one of John Bishops finer expressions) the cd Mastering Engineer being a total knob
Hence, it is quite difficult to compare the two WAV files. Compression is done in a different way due to the characteristics of vinyl/cd thus the sound can be quite different as well.
Some interesting reading maybe:
"How do you know if a vinyl master is audibly superior than the CD master?
You ask the mastering engineer what he did. Other that, that, generally, you don't know. There are certainly many wrong ways to determine this, which can lead to false positives and false negatives.
Many people look at large-scale waveform plots, like those available in Audacity and Audition, and compare the waveforms across the entire piece of music. This does not work. The distortions present in vinyl - everything from subsample delays in the recording process to phase errors in the analog electronics to tracking and tracing distortion - ensure that even if the vinyl is cut with the exact same master as the CD, the peaks will be considerably higher, even during regions of gross clipping. Thus this technique is generally not acceptable, even though it is by far the most popular.
RMS loudness estimates, such as the industry standard RMS figure and ReplayGain, are ineffective because they require a reference level to compare the vinyl and CD versions against. No such reference level exists.
Experimental dynamic range estimators, such as pfpf and SparkleMeter, are useful in teasing out substantial differences in dynamic range, and may be quite useful in estimating when they become audible, rather than . pfpf, in particular, is designed to be immune to moderate levels of clipping distortion, under the expectation that clipping is either going to be inaudible or going to affect the timbral character of the music, not the dynamic range.
The one consistently accepted method of showing reduced compression is to show the individual samples in a clipped waveform against the same waveform in a different master that is not clipped. But again, this method is not foolproof: Various distortions can mask the clipping so that it is not consistently at the signal peak, yet still retains its characteristic distortion. However, clipping may not exist obviously in hypercompressed music, and even if a difference exists, it very well may not be audible."
IZ.
Hence, it is quite difficult to compare the two WAV files. Compression is done in a different way due to the characteristics of vinyl/cd thus the sound can be quite different as well.
Some interesting reading maybe:
"How do you know if a vinyl master is audibly superior than the CD master?
You ask the mastering engineer what he did. Other that, that, generally, you don't know. There are certainly many wrong ways to determine this, which can lead to false positives and false negatives.
Many people look at large-scale waveform plots, like those available in Audacity and Audition, and compare the waveforms across the entire piece of music. This does not work. The distortions present in vinyl - everything from subsample delays in the recording process to phase errors in the analog electronics to tracking and tracing distortion - ensure that even if the vinyl is cut with the exact same master as the CD, the peaks will be considerably higher, even during regions of gross clipping. Thus this technique is generally not acceptable, even though it is by far the most popular.
RMS loudness estimates, such as the industry standard RMS figure and ReplayGain, are ineffective because they require a reference level to compare the vinyl and CD versions against. No such reference level exists.
Experimental dynamic range estimators, such as pfpf and SparkleMeter, are useful in teasing out substantial differences in dynamic range, and may be quite useful in estimating when they become audible, rather than . pfpf, in particular, is designed to be immune to moderate levels of clipping distortion, under the expectation that clipping is either going to be inaudible or going to affect the timbral character of the music, not the dynamic range.
The one consistently accepted method of showing reduced compression is to show the individual samples in a clipped waveform against the same waveform in a different master that is not clipped. But again, this method is not foolproof: Various distortions can mask the clipping so that it is not consistently at the signal peak, yet still retains its characteristic distortion. However, clipping may not exist obviously in hypercompressed music, and even if a difference exists, it very well may not be audible."
IZ.
Thanks so much for this comparison, that's a longstanding mystery finally solved!robertzombie wrote:BODY AND SOUL
I've now transferred both Body And Soul singles, 7" and 12". The mixes of Body And Soul and Train are different on both singles....
My friends call me Jack.
If you like it better then it's superior. End of.Izzy HaveMercy wrote:"How do you know if a vinyl master is audibly superior than the CD master?
IZ.
Any more of that and we'll be round your front door with the quick-setting whitewash and the shaved monkey.
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Izzy HaveMercy
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Us audio geeks search for more exotic explanationsstufarq wrote:If you like it better then it's superior. End of.Izzy HaveMercy wrote:"How do you know if a vinyl master is audibly superior than the CD master?
IZ.
IZ.
I finally ripped my copy of the 12" last year and Afterhours (IMO, one of the very best Sisters' tracks) sounds really nasty in places, as if it's overloading or clipping or something. The disc is in pretty good condition and I used a Rega Planar 3 / Behringer USB Phono interface to rip the audio; I suspect the distortion is in the original mastering. Do you hear anything similar?robertzombie wrote:BODY AND SOUL
I've now transferred both Body And Soul singles, 7" and 12" ...
Thanks.
<HTML & Methedrine>
I know. You're analysing the chemicals instead of smelling the roses.Izzy HaveMercy wrote:Us audio geeks search for more exotic explanationsstufarq wrote:If you like it better then it's superior. End of.Izzy HaveMercy wrote:"How do you know if a vinyl master is audibly superior than the CD master?
IZ.
IZ.
Any more of that and we'll be round your front door with the quick-setting whitewash and the shaved monkey.
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robertzombie
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Afterhours is distorted on my copy. A deliberate choice I think.
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Izzy HaveMercy
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Breaking Bad, Izzy Style!stufarq wrote:I know. You're analysing the chemicals instead of smelling the roses.Izzy HaveMercy wrote:Us audio geeks search for more exotic explanationsstufarq wrote: If you like it better then it's superior. End of.
IZ.
IZ.
I figured as much, but thanks for the confirmation.robertzombie wrote:Afterhours is distorted on my copy. A deliberate choice I think.
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Silence is platinum
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I have 3 different vinyl versions and all 3 are distorted when the guitar kicks inoneiros wrote:I figured as much, but thanks for the confirmation.robertzombie wrote:Afterhours is distorted on my copy. A deliberate choice I think.
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robertzombie
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Not vinyl, but I should probably add the This Corrosion cassingle to the list of cuts not available on CD. The two versions of the title track appear to stem from one unique mix (the choir is quite obviously mixed differently), the edit of Colours has a hissy saw synth streaming through the whole track (I haven't compared it to the CD single to see if they're the same but, listening on tape, that synth line popped out at me), and Torch is missing the closing bass notes.
On a separate note, the Canadian pressing of Floodland just sold for £60 on eBay. I noticed that on the label almost every song has a different running time to normal, they're replicated on the Discogs entry: http://www.discogs.com/Sisters-Of-Mercy ... se/1590021
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151325378243? ... 26_rdc%3D1
On a separate note, the Canadian pressing of Floodland just sold for £60 on eBay. I noticed that on the label almost every song has a different running time to normal, they're replicated on the Discogs entry: http://www.discogs.com/Sisters-Of-Mercy ... se/1590021
Are the tracks actually different lengths, or is it a mistake?Discogs wrote: Tracklist
A1 Dominion / Mother Russia 6:49
A2 Flood I 6:02
A3 Lucretia My Reflection 4:43
A4 1959 4:00
B1 This Corrosion 8:56
B2 Flood II 6:01
B3 Driven Like The Snow 4:26
B4 Never Land (A Fragment) 2:37
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151325378243? ... 26_rdc%3D1
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paint it black
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seriously, warm lemon drink is needed here
Goths have feelings too