Any thoughts on Ched Evans?

[markfiend]

What can get you sacked as a football player?

One thing that strikes me is that if I had just come out of a prison stretch for rape, I'd be pretty damn unlikely to get my old job back within the month...

[abridged]

Whilst wanting everyone to be rehabilitated it doesn't look good for Sheff Utd or the PFA or football to be connected with a convicted rapist. If I were a female SU fan I'd be damn unhappy about it. Misogyny is on the rise and this just adds to it. If he were at Chelsea I'd want him sacked and never allowed back.

[czuczu]

Sheff Utd should have taken the high ground and said no, they're under no obligations whatever the players union say.

[Quiff Boy]

fwiw, the club cancelled his contract when he was convicted. he is no longer a sheff utd player, and has not been since the minute the judge said 'guilty'.

the whole issue is legally incredibly simple, but morally incredibly complicated.

it's difficult because on one hand he's served his time, and thus should be allowed to rebuild his life. this is what our legal system is built on, and if his crime were not a sex offence, and he was not a public figure, i think his treatment it would be be very different. if he were a young lad who worked in an office who had been convicted of shop-lifting for example, would his release prevent him from getting a new job? if that's the case, how can anyone hope to reform upon release from prison?

also, to muddy the waters further, there are countless professional footballers who have left prison and resumed playing after serving time for things like assault and even man-slaughter (typically due to drunk or otherwise reckless driving)

the fact that ched's crime a 'sex crime' has meant he has been treated very differently.

where things get even stickier is that he still maintains his innocence, saying the worst crime he committed was infidelity.

for me this shows he does not understand the concept of 'rape' fully. i.e.: that if an individual is not in a fit state to offer their consent, you cannot take their lack of complaint as consent, and as such, he is unrepentant and has not been 'rehabilitated', which is presumably the aim of our penal system (but then why would he repentant when he believes - however incorrectly - that he isn't guilty?)

i don't know what the policy is for allowing people to serve their time and then come out and rebuild their lives, if they are unrepentant. you cant keep them in prison, but can you stop them from carrying on where they left off? and do the socially constructed 'rules' around this change if said ex-convict is a public figure rather than an average bloke on the street?

personally, i wish we (for those that didn't know, i'm a sheff utd fan) had not extended him this olive branch of allowing him to train with us. we washed our hands of him after he was convicted, and we should leave left it at that. furthermore, our handling of this has been a PR disaster and has made the whole thing worse.

as a sheffield united fan, i am struggling to reconcile the club i love - who claim to have strong family and community values - with this latest course of action. i think ched has a lot to learn about life, and i'd hope that after learning those missing things he would feel very differently about his crime.

interestingly, our manager nigel clough has had no say in this matter, and does not know what the board are planning, which is pretty f**king ridiculous and symptomatic of a board out of touch with the rest of the club, and public opinion.

it's a mess, and the way the club have handled it is doing no one any favours.

jesus

[Mav787]

Firstly I'm not s Sheff Utd fan.

I was struggling to put into words what I felt about this, especially the two points of he's served his time and that he's unrepentant.

Fortunately this comment sums up exactly how I feel about it.

fwiw, the club cancelled his contract when he was convicted. he is no longer a sheff utd player, and has not been since the minute the judge said 'guilty'.

the whole issue is legally incredibly simple, but morally incredibly complicated.

it's difficult because on one hand he's served his time, and thus should be allowed to rebuild his life. this is what our legal system is built on, and if his crime were not a sex offence, and he was not a public figure, i think his treatment it would be be very different. if he were a young lad who worked in an office who had been convicted of shop-lifting for example, would his release prevent him from getting a new job? if that's the case, how can anyone hope to reform upon release from prison?

also, to muddy the waters further, there are countless professional footballers who have left prison and resumed playing after serving time for things like assault and even man-slaughter (typically due to drunk or otherwise reckless driving)

the fact that ched's crime a 'sex crime' has meant he has been treated very differently.

where things get even stickier is that he still maintains his innocence, saying the worst crime he committed was infidelity.

for me this shows he does not understand the concept of 'rape' fully. i.e.: that if an individual is not in a fit state to offer their consent, you cannot take their lack of complaint as consent, and as such, he is unrepentant and has not been 'rehabilitated', which is presumably the aim of our penal system (but then why would he repentant when he believes - however incorrectly - that he isn't guilty?)

i don't know what the policy is for allowing people to serve their time and then come out and rebuild their lives, if they are unrepentant. you cant keep them in prison, but can you stop them from carrying on where they left off? and do the socially constructed 'rules' around this change if said ex-convict is a public figure rather than an average bloke on the street?

personally, i wish we (for those that didn't know, i'm a sheff utd fan) had not extended him this olive branch of allowing him to train with us. we washed our hands of him after he was convicted, and we should leave left it at that. furthermore, our handling of this has been a PR disaster and has made the whole thing worse.

as a sheffield united fan, i am struggling to reconcile the club i love - who claim to have strong family and community values - with this latest course of action. i think ched has a lot to learn about life, and i'd hope that after learning those missing things he would feel very differently about his crime.

interestingly, our manager nigel clough has had no say in this matter, and does not know what the board are planning, which is pretty f**king ridiculous and symptomatic of a board out of touch with the rest of the club, and public opinion.

it's a mess, and the way the club have handled it is doing no one any favours.

jesus

[emilystrange]

wouldn't touch him with a bargepole that'd reach from here to sheffield. toxic.
connected but not his doing - the 'fans' of his that think it's ok to belittle, harrass and suggest raping others who express a view on this, who named his victim and continue to abuse her, and those who are reportedly singing songs about sexual violence - are all sickening scum.
really. not wanting to beat around the bush or owt.

[EvilBastard]

So I'm reading up around this, and while I can see the point that Ched's supporters are making (that the prosecution's case was a bit pants), the fact is that he was convicted. Regardless of how we might feel about the strength of the conviction, there seem to be attempts (not least on Ched Evans' website) to retry the case in the court of public opinion. Not cool.

It's one thing to say, "I believe that I was wrongly convicted and I will appeal." The number of high profile miscarriages of justice in recent years should tell us that mistakes do get made. But I think if Ched had any grace he should follow that statement with, "I will be making every attempt to clear my name, but until that happens then I don't think it would be right for me to return to football in order to avoid bringing the game or my club into disrepute."

I agree with QB, he should be allowed to rebuild his life, rehabilitated. But then again, there are a lot of jobs that won't touch you if you have any criminal record, and given that presumably he's now on the sex offenders register finding another job is going to be extra-difficult.

I do wonder why he doesn't have people in his corner who are giving him better advice. He needs to rehabilitate his public image if he expects to be able to return to the public eye - charity work, maybe something that suggests "I made a mistake, I'm determined to make sure that other people don't make the same mistake I did," working with sex offenders prior to release, counselling young men who might be in danger of going down the same road he did, things of that ilk. It doesn't matter whether his heart isn't in it, he's showing that he's repenting for his sins. Showing up to his club going, "Yeah, I know I was convicted of a sex crime, but can I have my old gig back?" doesn't show that he accepts the verdict of the court or an understanding that he did something wrong.

Did he do it? Don't know, don't care. He was tried and convicted. That's all I've got to go on. If he was wrongly convicted then he can appeal (assuming that there's new and compelling evidence). Otherwise he needs to shut his pie-hole and make with the wailing and rending of garments if he ever wants a job that pays like his old one did.

[paint it black]

soccer isn't moral. if he's good enough, he'll play because he scores goals and the fans will be chanting his name. if he's good enough, he scores goals and Sheffield don't want him, then he'll probably score against them

[emilystrange]

he doesn't actually see that there's anything wrong with what happened, whether or not he was innocent. he wouldn't if it was someone else in the dock. he really can't see how wrong it was.
football had better get some f**king morality. plenty of my seven year olds are footy fans. they talk about their team and the players. they'll be talking about this in sheffield - how would you talk about rape with a seven year old evans fan when they bring up the subject of their favourite player's possible return?

[million voices]

Chop his dick off

[markfiend]

for me this shows he does not understand the concept of 'rape' fully. i.e.: that if an individual is not in a fit state to offer their consent, you cannot take their lack of complaint as consent, and as such, he is unrepentant and has not been 'rehabilitated'

I agree with this. 100%. From what he and his supporters actually admit happened, I don't see how he has a hope of overturning the conviction.

Also, I think that this:

soccer isn't moral.

Is the crux of the point.

Soccer isn't moral, but I agree with emilystrange that it should be. Like it or not, professional footballers are in an incredibly privileged position in our society; they are paid incredible amounts of money and (rightly or wrongly) are seen as role-models to thousands of young people across the country.

the 'fans' of his that think it's ok to belittle, harrass and suggest raping others who express a view on this, who named his victim and continue to abuse her, and those who are reportedly singing songs about sexual violence - are all sickening scum.
really. not wanting to beat around the bush or owt.

And this is where this role-model leads us. This is part of a whole pattern in society that minimises rape (and hey, what Ched did wasn't rape-rape, right guys?*) and prioritises rapists over their victims.

* To clarify: I don't actually think this.

[paint it black]

Soccer isn't moral, but I agree with emilystrange that it should be. Like it or not, professional footballers are in an incredibly privileged position in our society; they are paid incredible amounts of money and (rightly or wrongly) are seen as role-models to thousands of young people across the country.

Couldn’t agree more…

Just lol’ing at the news which claims the Fifa inquiry into corruption is erm… corrupted

[emilystrange]

setting a good example from the top down.

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

I agree with @QB in that the main problem is Evans lack of understanding/remorse, and with @EB that he has been badly advised and that volunteering to go into schools/youth clubs to spread the inability-to-say-yes-means-no message would have been not only useful to society (as @MarkFiend is effectively saying) but might also have paved the way for his return.

[emilystrange]

he's on the sex offenders register. doing any work with young people would be a big no-no.
the trouble is, no one would believe him if he did that. he clearly wouldn't believe the message he was spouting. it would be seen as PR and not rehab.

[EvilBastard]

Well, in that case the only viable option is to take him down to the canal with a sack and a couple of breezeblocks.

[emilystrange]

he should have had the benefit of two beezeblocks already

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

he's on the sex offenders register. doing any work with young people would be a big no-no.
the trouble is, no one would believe him if he did that. he clearly wouldn't believe the message he was spouting. it would be seen as PR and not rehab.

On your first point, not necessarily - does it not depend on the terms of the individual's licence? The restrictions placed on offenders would seem to vary from case to case. Voluntary work deemed appropriate and supervised by probation officers might be permitted. Having said that, having been sentenced to five years, he is in the upper category of offender, and probably subject to more restrictions.

I totally agree on your second point, my suggestion being based on the eventuality that he had been rehabilitated in prison, which is clearly not the case. I would be very surprised if any team took him on given his pronouncements since release.

[Dan]

If anyone non-famous was jailed for rape it'd be very unlikely their employer would put their job on hold until they return.
So he shouldn't be able to return to his new job.
However if he wants to apply for new footballing jobs then he should be allowed to, just like any employer should have the right to laugh and throw his application in the bin.

[emilystrange]

if ched evans was allowed to be in schools, safeguarding issues would have been breeched and you would have all sorts of people on your case for letting him in. not least parents!
other organisations - depends who they were regulated by. you'd have to be very very careful. i doubt they'd touch him with a bargepole.

[Quiff Boy]

If anyone non-famous was jailed for rape it'd be very unlikely their employer would put their job on hold until they return.
So he shouldn't be able to return to his new job.

sheff utd did not put his job on hold, and he is not returning to his old job.

as i stated in my post above, when he was sentenced his contract with the club was declared null and void, and he ceased to be a sheff utd 'employee' from that point on.

(in truth, it was actually a bit weird because that all happened towards the end of a season where he had been our star striker, and under normal circumstances he would have been due several team awards at the sheff utd end-of-season awards do, but he was literally expunged from the awards ceremony. he was not nominated for any awards and his name was never mentioned. it felt like they were trying really hard to distance themselves from the former association with this convicted rapist)

also, to re-state, as of the time of me writing this, ched is not a sheff utd employee.

this may sound pedantic, but it's important to your argument...

the matter of him possibly training with the team (he hasn't done it yet, akaik) seems to be as favour for a player that served us well until he behaved like a thoroughly unpleasant individual, and brought the club into disrepute.

i don't understand or agree with the logic, but that's what the logic seems to be.

if i was being forgiving, which i'm not, i would say the club were trying to help him get his career back on track. i actually find it sickening, and confusing given their previous reaction as described above where they dropped him like a stone when he was sentenced.

However if he wants to apply for new footballing jobs then he should be allowed to, just like any employer should have the right to laugh and throw his application in the bin.

agreed, and as you say future applications should (and probably will) be judged not just on the merits of his footballing abilities, but also the baggage that comes with him...

this type of thing is always a problem for ex-cons trying to get a job, no matter who they are or what field they work in. that's why so many gravitate back to their old lives and end up back inside.

this is unlikely to happen with ched as he presumably has a decent enough amount of earnings from his pre-rape career to fall back on, but if we abstract ourselves from this individual case, this kind off discrimination (which is essentially what it is, rightly to wrongly) is a common problem facing all ex-cons: they cant get a job because of the baggage (real or perceived) that comes with them.

[Quiff Boy]

fwiw, ched is not the first player that has had a criminal record involving sexual assault (he's not even the first player sheff utd have employed with one).

witness the divine human being that is marlon king:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlon_King

specifically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlon_Kin ... egal_cases

In May 2002 he received an eighteen-month prison sentence for receiving stolen goods, in relation to a BMW convertible that he was found driving, but was found not guilty of a charge of assaulting a police officer in a related case.

In December 2008, again in the Soho area, King was arrested on suspicion of punching a 20-year-old female university student in the face, causing a broken nose and split lip for which she was treated in hospital. He was later convicted of sexual assault and assault occasioning actual bodily harm, and sentenced to 18 months in prison and placed on the Sex Offender Register for seven years.[67] Wigan Athletic immediately initiated the cancellation of his contract.

King was arrested and bailed once more in April 2013 after a car crash which left one man seriously injured,[70] and in July of the same year, he was again arrested in connection with a hit-and-run incident which had left a second man injured.[71] King pleaded 'not guilty' to the first incident in November of the same year and had a trial date set for March 2014.[72] On 15 May 2014, King of Torksey, Lincolnshire, was sentenced to 18 months in prison and banned from driving for three years.

or man utd player jonny evans, who as a young starlet was accused of rape during a man utd xmas party:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonny_Evans#Personal_life

On 19 December 2007, Evans was arrested in connection to an alleged rape that occurred at the hotel where Manchester United's Christmas party was held.[23] On 8 March 2008, it was reported that Evans would not be prosecuted for any offence

and there's more, i just cant be arsed looking for them as it's all too depressing.

i do wonder if ched is being scapegoated for all the previous incident of bad behaviour by footballers...?

i'm not saying what he did is in any way excusable, but he's not the first yet we (society) are discussing his case as if he is the devil, and this is a new thing.

are we demonising him subconsciously because we (society & the law) failed to act in a sufficiently morally outraged way for all the other stupid and/or morally bankrupt young men before him?

[Quiff Boy]

society and the sport itself are also partly to blame for this.

i'm stereotyping and generalising massively, but i think it holds true enough to warrant stating...

we take a 12 year old kid who shows promise at football and drop him into a youth academy, where he is told that football is the be-all and end-all of his existence

as he grows older, he either gets better and gets to play first team football, or he plateaus and plays for smaller clubs, or drops out and gets a job.

the ones that go on to play first team football - especially for the bigger clubs - become idolised: they have 1000s of "fans" yelling at them every week, cheering their name, asking for autographs, and yes - trying to sleep with them.

they're typically in their early 20s, have power and influence, and they also have stupid amounts of money to play with.

is it any wonder their egos become inflated to the point where they think they can everything they want?

and many of these young guys are, lets face it, not the brightest. and many of them do not have a strong, grounded mentor they can relate to who can guide them through life. often parents cant relate to the lifestyle they now have, and their friends are just like them: not too bright, rich, and with enough seld-entitlement to fill a dozen wembley stadiums.

should we be surprised when they go off the rails?

we (society) have created this situation, and the football institution (clubs, the FA etc) have aided an abetted.

it's not a situation thats exclusive to british football either.

in fact, it's not even exclusive to football... have a closer look at the behaviour of baseball or american football players

the way sport has increasingly become focussed on developing the young, and bestowing fame and riches upon them without providing sufficient grounding or barriers in life is a global societal problem.

ched is just a single drop in a deeply f**ked up ocean.

[emilystrange]

hell yeah.

apparently wishing that chad could rape Jessica Ennis-Hill on twitter is someone asshat's right to free speech. he can say what he likes, innit?

[Johnny Rev 7.0]

Yeh, saw that reported earlier Jo. People are strange.