Question about Giving Ground

[stufarq]

What am I wrong about? I'm certainly not wrong about how the law works with regard to trademarks and ownership of names, and publishing rights being completely unrelated to that. If you like, I'll provide several links that explain it in detail.

Von has said he got worried when demo tapes by The Sisterhood started appearing, and as the only way to stop them using the name was to claim it first, he got a record out under that name ie Giving Ground. This meant that legally no other band could use the same name for performance or recording - that's a matter of law, not opinion.

He's also said he put the album out in an attempt to claim the publishing advance, which failed. Publishing rights and moneys go to songwriters, not bands, so that part is completely irrelevant to the ownership of the Sisterhood name.

Wayne has said they started using the name partly to annoy Von and stopped using it because Giving Ground came out, forcing them to change it.

[paint it black]

For the last time.

He found out the sisters of mercy were putting out demo tapes. Okay? (Oct 85)

The sisterhood were live, he could do nothing about that - he tried and failed.

Nor could he stop the sisterhood recording, but he could get therefore before them.

Tbh bored now.

[Swinnow]

Having known them at the time I think you'll find it was largely a publicity game by both sides. All parties have pretty much agreed to this over the years.

Too many people reading things into rather old press cuttings nowadays without an understanding of the times.

[million voices]

Was there a press cutting in The Times?

[mh]

IIRC the quote went something like "I stopped them from using the name The Sisters of Mercy but my lawyer told me that if they wanted to be called The Sisterhood there was nothing I could do about it". I don't have a source but it can probably be found in one of the various press clippings archives.

The important point is that "using the name The Sisters of Mercy" doesn't necessarily mean that they were operating under that name. "Using the name" could just as likely mean putting "ex Sisters of Mercy" on adverts, posters or other promo material.

[stufarq]

He found out the sisters of mercy were putting out demo tapes. Okay? (Oct 85)

Every quote I've read says he found out they were putting out demo tapes by The Sisterhood. If they were putting them out as SOM, please provide evidence. That would be much more helpful to the discussion.

The sisterhood were live, he could do nothing about that - he tried and failed.

No, he succeeded, which is why they announced the name change at a concert on 27th February (long before they released anything), specifically blaming it on the release of Giving Ground.

Nor could he stop the sisterhood recording, but he could get therefore before them.

Which is what I said.

Can't be arsed.
You're wrong. AE and WH say so
For the last time.
Tbh bored now.

You seem determined to make this more hostile than it needs to be. It would be a much friendlier conversation without these sorts of remarks.

Having known them at the time I think you'll find it was largely a publicity game by both sides. All parties have pretty much agreed to this over the years.

Too many people reading things into rather old press cuttings nowadays without an understanding of the times.

Wayne's camp have certainly always said that it was mainly a game to them and that Von perpetuated it much longer than they expected. But there was definitely bad blood as a result.

[Being645]

As can be seen here, The Sisterhood was finally dissolved on 12/02/1991 ...

[stufarq]

As can be seen here, The Sisterhood was finally dissolved on 12/02/1991 ...

Wonder why they kept it going for so long. Maybe in case Patricia tried to start a rival band?

[paint it black]

You seem determined to make this more hostile than it needs to be. It would be a much friendlier conversation without these sorts of remarks.

now very bored, accept 'hispaintedblackness' (and associated: band members, housemates. liggers, groupies, hangers-on.) has spoken, therefore this is a matter of fact.

your lack of understanding is a failing on your part, not mine

adios

[Dan]

Maybe in case Patricia tried to start a rival band?

Funny you should say that. When Patricia's band was advertised to play the Leeds Duchess on 3rd Aug 1992 the band name was listed on the Duchess flyers as "Sister Gun". The gig was then cancelled, I was told it was because the band wasn't ready yet and needed more rehearsals. The band debuted in (I think)Oct'92 using her own name as the band name, and didn't t play the Duchess until 11th June 94.

There was also the time when "The Sisterhood" were advertised as playing 2 nights at Wakefield Rooftop Gardens (4th & 5th Nov 1988). After several phone calls I was told it was "4 girls singing in a band, they've been around for quite some time".

[JohnR]

I would gather the necessity to rush release the single negated any time or reason to record a proper demo.

That's probably a fair assumption, but James Ray's performance (see what I did there?) is clearly "in the style" of Andrew Eldritch. James Ray's subsequent recordings aren't as overtly influenced by Andrew Eldritch's vocals, so I have to think that if there wasn't a demo recording made, then Eldritch must have at least sang it for him live in the studio to provide a guide. Either that, or Ray took it upon himself to try to channel Eldritch's vocal style.

[Being645]

I would gather the necessity to rush release the single negated any time or reason to record a proper demo.

That's probably a fair assumption, but James Ray's performance (see what I did there?) is clearly "in the style" of Andrew Eldritch. James Ray's subsequent recordings aren't as overtly influenced by Andrew Eldritch's vocals, so I have to think that if there wasn't a demo recording made, then Eldritch must have at least sang it for him live in the studio to provide a guide. Either that, or Ray took it upon himself to try to channel Eldritch's vocal style.

Maybe this thread is quite interesting ... ...
https://www.myheartland.co.uk/viewtopic ... highlight=

[Swinnow]

But anyway...

Look forward to the gigs and whatever dubious cover that I might be seen shaking a leg to in Leeds and Manca.

If it's Tower Of Strength I'll get the beers in lol x

[Spiggy's hat]

Nearly 30 years on and I'm still pi**ed off with Von, that he let the Birmingham & Camden dates of that Sisterhood/m*****n tour go ahead but managed to cancel the Leeds date between those two.......the one that I had a ticket for

I don't suppose anyone has a photo of the chalked message on a blackboard outside Leeds uni that said "Due to legal action from Andrew Eldritch, tonight's gig has been cancelled".

[Being645]

Nearly 30 years on and I'm still pi**ed off with Von, that he let the Birmingham & Camden dates of that Sisterhood/m*****n tour go ahead but managed to cancel the Leeds date between those two.......the one that I had a ticket for

I don't suppose anyone has a photo of the chalked message on a blackboard outside Leeds uni that said "Due to legal action from Andrew Eldritch, tonight's gig has been cancelled".

Haha, I hadn't heard of that before. Love it ... ...

Bad luck on your part, however, and I feel sorry for that little inconvenience. Though surely you were returned the ticket fee?

[Spiggy's hat]

Nearly 30 years on and I'm still pi**ed off with Von, that he let the Birmingham & Camden dates of that Sisterhood/m*****n tour go ahead but managed to cancel the Leeds date between those two.......the one that I had a ticket for

I don't suppose anyone has a photo of the chalked message on a blackboard outside Leeds uni that said "Due to legal action from Andrew Eldritch, tonight's gig has been cancelled".

Haha, I hadn't heard of that before. Love it ... ...

Bad luck on your part, however, and I feel sorry for that little inconvenience. Though surely you were returned the ticket fee?

Yes, full refund on the ticket but an ongoing bitterness that I missed a little bit of Sisters/Mish/Merciful Release history back then.

As per this thread, this was the 1985 into 86 mystery period, long before the internet, where if you weren't close to the band or well connected to other fans in the know, you were trying to keep up with the rumours of who was in which band/were they playing Sisters songs etc.

[Mav787]

As per this thread, this was the 1985 into 86 mystery period, long before the internet, where if you weren't close to the band or well connected to other fans in the know, you were trying to keep up with the rumours of who was in which band/were they playing Sisters songs etc.

The good old days(?) pre-internet where the only information about a band was printed in NME, Sounds, or Melody Maker and if you missed a week then they weren't going to print it again the following week. Kids today don't know they are born....

[Pista]

Haha.
I often think the same when I thumb through all those tapes I bought at record fairs with the brightly coloured photocopied covers.

[Being645]

Yes, full refund on the ticket but an ongoing bitterness that I missed a little bit of Sisters/Mish/Merciful Release history back then.

As per this thread, this was the 1985 into 86 mystery period, long before the internet, where if you weren't close to the band or well connected to other fans in the know, you were trying to keep up with the rumours of who was in which band/were they playing Sisters songs etc.

Oh, I can imagine ... I got internet access years after UTR ... that was just cruel ...

[Dan]

I remember seeing a poster on the wall in the common room at Park Lane College advertising upcoming gigs, one of which was that cancelled Sisterhood gig. Incidentally on a wall near Park Lane College just past the chip shop I remember seeing "The Sisters Of Mercy" stencilled on the wall, looking quite faded like it'd been there a few years (It'd be 1986-ish when I saw it).

Talking of the "pre-internet" era, I remember a friend telling me the new Sisters Of Mercy album had been reviewed in The Times, but they never kept the article and could remember almost nothing about what'd been said. It turned out later that it'd been a review of SSV which I didn't know existed until months later. A very early version must have been sent to The Times for review, but does anyone have a scan of the article???

[eastmidswhizzkid]

all parties agreed to not use name The Sisters of Merct leay. wayne and craig then rumoured to be reneging on this agreement ....they couldnt because it was trademarkd/copyrighted by eldritch. they then tried for just "The Sisters" which was too close to the full name and so still legally blocked...hence the ssisterhood. hence the giving ground. the earliest version of which is the instrumental version on the 7"

all these facts canbe heard being related by eldritch himself on this:

[paint it black]

^ a wee bit of bias, but a good start - good point Lee re the b-side being the a-side and one of them being the demo, which perhaps answers the OP

[spiggymr7]

For @Spiggy's hat .
But sorry i don t have a photo of the chalked message on a blackboard outside Leeds uni that said "Due to legal action from Andrew Eldritch, tonight's gig has been cancelled"......

[Nikolas Vitus Lagartija]

Thanks again, @spiggymr7. At least the support bands didn't miss out. DNA promoted a gig at the Warehouse three weeks later with The Rose of Avalanche headlining supported by the Beat Devils.