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nowayjose
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You're being hysterical, calm down. And for eotonun: speak only for yourself.

The euro, as it is, cannot work. Locking together such diverse economies as the industrial north and the 'club med' in one currency is a recipe for disaster. This can already be observed, on a smaller scale, in Italy, where the same problems exist on a national level.
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markfiend
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On the whole I'm very much in favour of the European project. The breaking down of national barriers, free movement of goods and of people, all strikes me as an eminently sensible way of proceeding. What is not acceptable to me is the way that banks and large corporations can thwart the democratically decided will of the people. However this isn't a fault of the EU in particular but of global capitalism in general.
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
—Bertrand Russell
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nowayjose
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@markfiend:
You welcome the breaking down of nation states, advocate the free movement of goods and people and then, in the second sentence, you deplore the rising power of huge corporations undermining democracy, which is a direct consequence of what you state in the first sentence. It doesn't make much sense to me. You can have either but not both.
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eastmidswhizzkid
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nowayjose wrote:You're being hysterical, calm down.
as the previous poster i sincerely hope that isnt aimed at me...
Well I was handsome and I was strong
And I knew the words to every song.
"Did my singing please you?"
"No! The words you sang were wrong!"
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markfiend
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I don't think unregulated corporate power is a necessary consequence of breaking down national barriers; IMO we need a united Europe under a strong socialist government (yeah, I know, you can't get there from here).

The problem as I see it is a lack of democratic oversight and regulation. I see no reason why this oversight and regulation cannot be done at a continent-wide (or even global) level.
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
—Bertrand Russell
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Being645
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markfiend wrote:...
The problem as I see it is a lack of democratic oversight and regulation. I see no reason why this oversight and regulation cannot be done at a continent-wide (or even global) level.
Because democratically elected governments all over Europe are increasingly taken as hostages by international global capitalism
and many of them are even in for it and turn to ever more functioning as mere livestock management agencies for the the latter ... :urff: :urff: ...
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nowayjose
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markfiend wrote:IMO we need a united Europe under a strong socialist government
I hope that's not imminent... or is it time to start hoarding loo rolls?

A centralist bureaucracy doesn't ever seem to be a good idea, decentralism and shallow layers are better performing and much closer to the needs of the people.
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markfiend
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nowayjose wrote:
markfiend wrote:IMO we need a united Europe under a strong socialist government
I hope that's not imminent... or is it time to start hoarding loo rolls?

A centralist bureaucracy doesn't ever seem to be a good idea, decentralism and shallow layers are better performing and much closer to the needs of the people.
Yeah I'll edit what I'd originally posted here, unnecessary snark sorry.

I do agree with decentralisation actually, but in terms of things like healthcare, there are economies of scale to be had (which is why the UK Tories' attack on our NHS is so fecking stupid). I'll reluctantly admit the necessity of some sort of armed forces, and I think there's an argument to be made that they should be under a Europe-wide governance. Things like pay and conditions for workers should have a Europe-wide minimum standard. That sort of thing.

Sorry I haven't really got time to go into my full-on European manifesto ;D
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
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nowayjose
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markfiend wrote:Things like pay and conditions for workers should have a Europe-wide minimum standard
Yes, that sounds reasonable in principle... although I'm afraid, in practice, the minimum standard would then actually be the minimum... of the various national standards.
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markfiend
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Hence a strong central government that's actually democratic as opposed to being in the pockets of the banks and corporations.
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
—Bertrand Russell
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sultan2075
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markfiend wrote:Hence a strong central government that's actually democratic as opposed to being in the pockets of the banks and corporations.
What does that look like?
--
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
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markfiend
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sultan2075 wrote:
markfiend wrote:Hence a strong central government that's actually democratic as opposed to being in the pockets of the banks and corporations.
What does that look like?
markfiend wrote:yeah, I know, you can't get there from here
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
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sultan2075
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markfiend wrote:
sultan2075 wrote:
markfiend wrote:Hence a strong central government that's actually democratic as opposed to being in the pockets of the banks and corporations.
What does that look like?
markfiend wrote:yeah, I know, you can't get there from here
I'm not asking how you get there. I'm asking for a description of the destination.
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eotunun
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markfiend wrote:Yeah I'll edit what I'd originally posted here, unnecessary snark sorry.

I do agree with decentralisation actually, but in terms of things like healthcare, there are economies of scale to be had (which is why the UK Tories' attack on our NHS is so fecking stupid). I'll reluctantly admit the necessity of some sort of armed forces, and I think there's an argument to be made that they should be under a Europe-wide governance. Things like pay and conditions for workers should have a Europe-wide minimum standard. That sort of thing.

Sorry I haven't really got time to go into my full-on European manifesto ;D
Plus the concept of nations as such crumbles in today´s reality, and imho exposes itself as utter lunacy. The borders of nations, that patriots so dearly love, merely are the lines where the so far last of the many wars ended. What wasn´t a nation´s own land back then, and thus wasn´t subject to national pride suddenly becomes a matter of emotional support?
My arse.
Especially in Europe, we have a history of interchange between the countries that already tied us together closely. What with the local cultures and ethnical differences? -Goodness, each of the european countries is a patchwork of different languages and ethnical groups!
One of the areas where the UK is way ahead of most other european countries is acknowledging the various old languages, and actively preserving the Gaelic language for example.
In Germany, linguists list Plattdütsch, Nordfriesisch, Ripoarisch, Alamanisch and Boarisch as discrete languages.
Let´s not even mention Belgium here. I´d just like to hint on the vast advantage Belgians have from their flexibillity in languages, see Iz, Christoph, Coen, Zed and Rafael for evidence. I think Belgium is the best of all examples for the benefit the individual can draw from the diversity of language.
So while we accept the "dialects" within a country not to be an obstacle for a common legislation and administration, the same thing would be impossible to accept with Europe as a whole?
Why?
And yes, sadly it´s a fact of current life that societies need to be able to defend themselves. With a look at the current situation, Greece is left alone with the costs for an army that is supposed to secure one of the most easily attacked corners of Europe, an important border, and a one pretty close to one of the world´s most unstable regions while at the same time being supposed to cut its spendings? Where is any decency in that? -It´s in Europe´s very interest to relieve Greece of that!
Another ting is that, with China and India as growing economical factors and peoples of plus billion strength, individual European nations become dwarves that will not be able to keep their own when in competition with those giants. Not even the USA will ultimately be able to do so. Some 600000000 Europeans stand a much greater chance if they manage to act together.
And, as a general development, the social rank of the worker will practically vanish. With automation in the industry as the factor that had unemployment skyrocket since the seventies, we have a commonly known social problem that yet has to be fixed. None of the societies managed to so far. Thatcherism offered an intermediate patch, that would work for some time for the country´s ecconomy, and only for the first country to apply it. It also caused serious problems for the weakest of society. Since the banking crisis of 2008, the limits of that patch blinked around the corner, saying "See you later, pals!".
And we have seen nothing yet. Many, many peeps will yet become unnecessary for companies, a situation also known as "redundant"

What will be the solution? Will those affected be left to their own devices, and try to cope with that situation which means making them take the chances they don´t have, or will there be the a change in premises?
So far, the answer to the problem has been making labour cheaper for companies, something which Germany excels in. (By this, Germany damages the economies of all neighbours as well, that´s a different topic, though. Let´s just say I´m not that happy with the German governments of the past 30 years and the constant long easy right hand curve they have taken…)
Some kind of socialism in a democracy that deserves this label would probably be the only possible reply. A legislation, which puts some beef to the claim that men are created equal will be called for.
That´s why I think shouldn´t just steer in the direction of the United States of Europe including the UK, but we have to do so. I think it´s in the very own interest of us Europeans.
So yes, Mark, I am with you here. Got anything to do until noontime tomorrow? ;D
"These are my principles! And if you don't like the just says so, I have others, too!"
~Rufus T. Firefly
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markfiend
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sultan2075 wrote:I'm not asking how you get there. I'm asking for a description of the destination.
Oh, sorry I missed this.

Something like Clem Atlee's government?
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
—Bertrand Russell
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