I bring it up as a general issue.
I'm a political scientist by trade, trained in theory and Americanism. I'm really curious about the possible Brexit, but I admit that between my teaching and research Interests I know very little about it, and the relevant debates (though my wife is from the EU)(Teaching Cicero in the fall for what might be obvious reasons).
So: what is the best thing to look at if I want a fake account of the relevant issues? What do YOU think?
Brexit?
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sultan2075
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The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
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sultan2075
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Goddamn autocorrect. Fake account="good account "
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The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
What would Brexit be for UK and EU economy- we all can read what would be possible outomes of this, with some varieties, at least in short term. I'll not speak for Britons, they know better and they can judge better, but obviously (some) Britons like to see themselves as Island that can and will stand, thrive and survive alone, independently. (But, to meet truth, that what any nationalist think about he/her country).
What I think it could be for EU, in short: a begining of the end. First step to deconctrucion of EU. Falling apart of that structure and divide onto smaller group of countries.
Some would quote: Had a sense it couldn't last / Watched the wonder wander past
But I see that it also in perspctive of rise-again nationalisms, in the most primitive meaning of that term, what currently seems to be common in the world; that would be a fuel for that fire. We all know where it could end. Still, no suprise, but it was nice that over 70 yrs Europe was almost free from internal wars.
What I think it could be for EU, in short: a begining of the end. First step to deconctrucion of EU. Falling apart of that structure and divide onto smaller group of countries.
Some would quote: Had a sense it couldn't last / Watched the wonder wander past
But I see that it also in perspctive of rise-again nationalisms, in the most primitive meaning of that term, what currently seems to be common in the world; that would be a fuel for that fire. We all know where it could end. Still, no suprise, but it was nice that over 70 yrs Europe was almost free from internal wars.
Last edited by Bartek on 13 Jun 2016, 07:36, edited 2 times in total.
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eastmidswhizzkid
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fuck BREXIT. i'm bloody-minded enough to want to stay simply because the majority of people who want us to leave are UTTER CUNTS.
Well I was handsome and I was strong
And I knew the words to every song.
"Did my singing please you?"
"No! The words you sang were wrong!"
And I knew the words to every song.
"Did my singing please you?"
"No! The words you sang were wrong!"
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Silver_Owl
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I like being part of one big happy family.
AND I agree with Lee.
HEARTLAND SAY 'STAY'.
AND I agree with Lee.
HEARTLAND SAY 'STAY'.
We forgive as we forget
As the day is long.
As the day is long.
Getting a good account is going to be a toughie.
I read dozens of news outlets every day & opinion swings wildly, depending on (as far as I can tell) region.
I'd suggest an apolitical news outlet, but those seem to be as rare as rocking horse poop these days.
I do tend to read the Grauniad more than others. They tend to have opinion on both sides of the argument.
Deffo don't go near the Daily Fail though!
I was in the UK the week before last & was quite shocked at how some wanted out. Their arguments all seemed to be based on testimony from "bloke in a pub" or The Sun.
As a Brit abroad (in Hungary) I don't get a vote, but I very much hope the remain camp wins.
I like the freedom of being an EU citizen.
I read dozens of news outlets every day & opinion swings wildly, depending on (as far as I can tell) region.
I'd suggest an apolitical news outlet, but those seem to be as rare as rocking horse poop these days.
I do tend to read the Grauniad more than others. They tend to have opinion on both sides of the argument.
Deffo don't go near the Daily Fail though!
I was in the UK the week before last & was quite shocked at how some wanted out. Their arguments all seemed to be based on testimony from "bloke in a pub" or The Sun.
As a Brit abroad (in Hungary) I don't get a vote, but I very much hope the remain camp wins.
I like the freedom of being an EU citizen.
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Silver_Owl
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...and that one statement should be the tagline of the 'stay' campaign.Pista wrote: I like the freedom of being an EU citizen.
We forgive as we forget
As the day is long.
As the day is long.
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Silver_Owl
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- Joined: 27 Sep 2003, 18:52
...and that one statement should be the tagline of the 'stay' campaign.Pista wrote: I like the freedom of being an EU citizen.
We forgive as we forget
As the day is long.
As the day is long.
Over our way (Northern Ireland) Europe has been good for us, not least in financial terms and nobody really believes that the saving we'd supposedly make if the UK left Europe would really come back to us. Especially us in the arts. Likewise though I'm freelance so have absolutely no job protection from anyone I want Europe to keep Boris and Co (not to mention Cameron) in check with at least a few workers rights. Though the usual loons, racists and DUP-types are for Brexit it's disappointing though not surprising that (over here at least) the hard left also back Brexit and are willing to sacrifice us to the mercy of Iain Duncan Smith and Nigel Farage because of some commitment to world revolution than to facing reality. Europe is far from perfect but I'd rather have it protecting us (a bit) than the Brexit crew given their way.
The Chancer Corporation
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sultan2075
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This is all quite interesting - thank you! Here in the US, there's definitely been a resurgence of nationalism as well. I think that's really what we were looking at in the Republican and Democratic primaries - globalists (i.e., Hillary Clinton, the Republican establishment) vs. nationalists (Trump, Sanders).
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The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
Been watching the developments there too.
I long since gave up on reading about it in the fark politics tab though. It is a scary place & a bit flamey
There is so much BS being spouted by both sides of the EU referendum it gets hard to cut through it. What's more worrying (i think) is the impact social media is having on the electorate.
It's rather ironic that a society that readily embraces globalism in terms of the WWW is so quick to shun it in real life.
If the leave camp were told they'd not be able to connect to other European websites if they won, they'd soon change their tune
I long since gave up on reading about it in the fark politics tab though. It is a scary place & a bit flamey
There is so much BS being spouted by both sides of the EU referendum it gets hard to cut through it. What's more worrying (i think) is the impact social media is having on the electorate.
It's rather ironic that a society that readily embraces globalism in terms of the WWW is so quick to shun it in real life.
If the leave camp were told they'd not be able to connect to other European websites if they won, they'd soon change their tune
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Alex66
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I have yet to meet a decent one, the wanker that came to the door started swearing at me and calling me a traitor for being a pro european. Anyhow my postal vote is in and I am scared we will f**k it up and leave.eastmidswhizzkid wrote:fuck BREXIT. i'm bloody-minded enough to want to stay simply because the majority of people who want us to leave are UTTER CUNTS.
The illiterate of the future will not be the man who cannot read the alphabet, but the one who cannot take a photograph. - Walter Benjamin
Driver powered by Cigarettes, Caffeine and Vitriol
Driver powered by Cigarettes, Caffeine and Vitriol
I will use a monty python animation to comment on this, if you allow me.
and add: while you can
and add: while you can
'Are we the Baddies?'...
"Someday! Someday, everything you need, is just gonna fall out of the sky..." -A.E. Reading 1991
"Don't forget that most of the judges in witches trials had harvard degrees."
"Someday! Someday, everything you need, is just gonna fall out of the sky..." -A.E. Reading 1991
"Don't forget that most of the judges in witches trials had harvard degrees."
Always a bit interesting to see that the UK left(?) apparently sees the EU as some kind of counterweight against global market forces, whereas the left in the rest of Europe is more likely to see it as a tool for such forces. I'm inclined to believe the latter view, or what iesus says. I'm an entrepreneur myself and wouldn't exactly call myself a leftist, but really, need I say more than TTIP? Strong united European position on that one, for example? No I don't think so.[/b]
Most of the arguments I've seen online from people who want to leave have been from people who are only concerned with immigration and don't seem to care about the bigger picture as long as they can "leave and have less immigration".
Other peoples arguments for leaving revolve around human rights... except the European Convention Of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU. Iceland and Russia are members, for example.
Other people talk about "taking back control". And that's my reason for wanting to stay. Our MP's are incompetent and corrupt. I don't want them to have more control because they'll muck things up.
Other peoples arguments for leaving revolve around human rights... except the European Convention Of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU. Iceland and Russia are members, for example.
Other people talk about "taking back control". And that's my reason for wanting to stay. Our MP's are incompetent and corrupt. I don't want them to have more control because they'll muck things up.
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Being645
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Unfortunately, freedom is relative in the EU and getting daily more depending on one's account.Pista wrote: I like the freedom of being an EU citizen.
Still, given the all over right-wing and nationalist tendencies not only in Europe, it might take a bit longer
that things aggrevate further in nasty directions with the EU than without it. If Britain should leave that
will accelerate the process of increasing nationalism everywhere, not only but also within the EU.
Apart from that I'm so glad that Britain is a member of the EU. British civil society is so much bolder than
what we have here in Germany. It makes me wonder how comes that people think about Brexit and are
willing to act towards/against that issue much more than with regard to austerity ...
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emilystrange
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Lee has it.
I just can't keep living on dreams no more
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Silver_Owl
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Vote Lee.
We forgive as we forget
As the day is long.
As the day is long.
AFIK, it was started by politics and it's runed by politics. People have as much for that as to be lure by one or other part and vote.Being645 wrote:It makes me wonder how comes that people think about Brexit and are
willing to act towards/against that issue much more than with regard to austerity ...
Most of those campaigning to leave the EU appear to be on the right in politics generally, and many of them wish to see the dismantling of the NHS, so their suggestion that the money 'saved' by leaving would go into improving the NHS is a blatant lie. The EU has many problems, it is geared towards businesses, it may be too big, the Euro clearly has problems, BUT it is far more progressive that the UK has generally been, has much better employment rights and environmental safeguards for example than we would otherwise have - this is in part the reason why the majority on the right wish us to leave.
I for one wish us to stay.
I for one wish us to stay.
Is this the place I used to know as Fatherland?
I'm not necessarily sure the majority are; just the most vocal ones.eastmidswhizzkid wrote:fuck BREXIT. i'm bloody-minded enough to want to stay simply because the majority of people who want us to leave are UTTER CUNTS.
Any more of that and we'll be round your front door with the quick-setting whitewash and the shaved monkey.
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Mr Alphabet
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Can you name a 'remain' who isn't a massive c**t either?czuczu wrote:Can you name a 'leave' spokesperson/figurehead/cheerleader who isn 't a massive c**t?
There's cameron, osborne, blair, brown, hunt, mandelson, kinnock just for starters who are all top of the c**t league
You're going to struggle if you restrict yourself to just professional politicians, they all contain the gene to a degree. I believe anyone is allowed to voice an opinion?Mr Alphabet wrote:Can you name a 'remain' who isn't a massive c**t either?czuczu wrote:Can you name a 'leave' spokesperson/figurehead/cheerleader who isn 't a massive c**t?
There's cameron, osborne, blair, brown, hunt, mandelson, kinnock just for starters who are all top of the c**t league
10 minutes before you posted, JK Rowling was RTd into my timeline with
"I don't want to leave a union that has brought more peace and stability to the region than it has ever known #Remain ".
She's always seemed to be a good egg to me. My point was I've not seen any 'leave' campaigners who aren't extremely objectionable..