Intelligent conversation

[snowey]

I still find it remarkable that I was able to leave school at 14 (loads of sagging school) with no qualifications and Mrs Snowey goes to Liverpool Poly for 4 years to get a BSc in Biology. One of us gets paid 6 and a half K more than the other?? Guess who??

It's a funny world....

[paint it black]

But is 11 the right time to decide that?

Valid point, well made , but the timing wasn’t the issue within the context of my statement.

At 11 I was banded into the A stream; that meant I got to study Latin and German; thereby forfeiting a games lesson. I know which I would have prepared. It also meant I lost my best friend because he was streamed B, and a very few were streamed C.

The A stream were given extra homework (how that grated @ 11 years old) and more hours devoted to the humanities; whilst the B stream spent more hours on practical application and sport. Very elitist but it worked; and we still won the form cup for footie three years running.

Whilst chatting about timing, Mrs PIB was (un)lucky enough to live in Laguna bay. At around age 7, she was streamed off into a special school for child prodigies from the California area. Good for the parent’s egos, but not quite so for a little girl miles from home. The sole purpose was to spend too much money on one to one teaching for a select few who might make a real difference and then burnout at around thirty years old. I digress…and it’s not relevant to the thread.

[andymackem]

that's what I meant with "your unies suck" :whistle:
see, the problem is that this is a vicious circle.....this way your uni's will only get worse and worse.....

I see that, but we need a combination of better uni's and better students. Ideally making university less of a state-sponsored doss (or even shedding it's reputation of being state-sponsored doss) would promote more commitment on behalf of the students who choose to go.

Part of the problem might also be the social shift in the UK over the last 20 years or so [I should add perceived social shift, in fairness]. When you have a long-serving government led by a woman who proclaims the death of society and promotes a self-centred economic creed, all public services suffer as a result.

Now we have created a kind of meritocracy of wealth where people demand rights (such as dossing for three years at the taxpayers' expense) without ever accepting responsibilities (such as footing their beer bill). I involved myself briefly with student politics in my time (I know, I know. ) and once had to sit and listen in all seriousness while someone explained to me why it was unfair that students could be charged different levels of rent in uni accommodation. The fact that the expensive rooms came with en-suite showers while the cheaper ones had one bathroom shared between 6 or 8 rooms didn't seem to make any impact. That's the kind of "world owes me a living" attitude we are dealing with, and that's why any effort to change a failing system meets with great dismay.

[Black Shuck]

I still find it remarkable that I was able to leave school at 14 (loads of sagging school) with no qualifications and Mrs Snowey goes to Liverpool Poly for 4 years to get a BSc in Biology. One of us gets paid 6 and a half K more than the other?? Guess who??

It's a funny world....

Blimey snowey, I didn't know you could earn so much money just by subjecting yourself to medical experimentation and drug trials!

[randdebiel²]

I see that, but we need a combination of better uni's and better students. Ideally making university less of a state-sponsored doss (or even shedding it's reputation of being state-sponsored doss) would promote more commitment on behalf of the students who choose to go.

yes but it would still exclude some, creating a parents-to-child poor class

Part of the problem might also be the social shift in the UK over the last 20 years or so [I should add perceived social shift, in fairness]. When you have a long-serving government led by a woman who proclaims the death of society and promotes a self-centred economic creed, all public services suffer as a result.

I guess you're right on this point....

Now we have created a kind of meritocracy of wealth where people demand rights (such as dossing for three years at the taxpayers' expense) without ever accepting responsibilities (such as footing their beer bill). I involved myself briefly with student politics in my time (I know, I know. ) and once had to sit and listen in all seriousness while someone explained to me why it was unfair that students could be charged different levels of rent in uni accommodation. The fact that the expensive rooms came with en-suite showers while the cheaper ones had one bathroom shared between 6 or 8 rooms didn't seem to make any impact. That's the kind of "world owes me a living" attitude we are dealing with, and that's why any effort to change a failing system meets with great dismay.

this is f**ked up.....the UK definitely needs a change of direction in this point....
I was always more of a liberal than a socialist, but moderated socialism(like we have here...)definitely seems to work better.....
I think it's really sad when people lose the ability to see the big picture....

[Mrs RicheyJames]

The only people I know who went to uni and 'studied' some irrelevant course, were people who 'Daddy' funded anyway. I think there should be some relevance structure in place for funding. Bollox courses like egg boiling or hair growing or what ever, people should pay for themselves......Things that will have a benefit to society once completed should be funded by the government, or at least part funded (depending on your income, or Daddys income lol).

Sorry for any spelling mistakes (well I'm actually not at all) But I didn't do spelling as part of my course LOL

[Thrash Harry]

I'm a firm believer in the Comprehensive system. At primary school, all my friends, unlike myself, lived on council estates. They were all equally capable of passing the 11+ but had already decided they daren't step out of their front door in a grammar school blazer so they deliberately failed the test.

I also believe in free higher education in principle, but can't see the need for so many of our kids to have it. I don't think an academic education for all necessarily creates a better society. I'm a graduate, Mrs T left school @ 15, but there will be a lot more tears shed at her funeral than at mine.

I guess there will always be people like myself who get to University cos it was always expected of them only to wake up and discover that they know as much as they want to about their chosen subject. Undoubtedly, my tutors should have shown me the door, but I had so few lectures to attend anyway that they probably didn't even notice me not attending them. I wouldn't have lasted 6 months on a science course.

[randdebiel²]

The only people I know who went to uni and 'studied' some irrelevant course, were people who 'Daddy' funded anyway. I think there should be some relevance structure in place for funding. Bollox courses like egg boiling or hair growing or what ever, people should pay for themselves......Things that will have a benefit to society once completed should be funded by the government, or at least part funded (depending on your income, or Daddys income lol).

Sorry for any spelling mistakes (well I'm actually not at all) But I didn't do spelling as part of my course LOL

I'd agree on this....the only problem would be....on what base would you decide which to fund and which not? for example....maths don't give direct benefit to society, but a lot of times it does years and yers afterwards....whereas IT can seem very relevant now, but completely outdated within 5 years...if they have to many IT-ers, or civil engineers....

[MrChris]

Okay, this post is potentially boring. I warned you.

The govt proposals on funding display a real lack of clear thinking, and run together several opposed ideas -
We need graduates, so we'll pay for them to some degree (nurses / physicists may go free)
Some courses cost more, so we'll charge more
(e.g. science courses are expensive - but, errr, nurses and physicists go free)
Some courses give their graduates good earning potential, so it's fair for them to pay something
(e.g. law students - but, errr, law courses are very cheap to run).

It's a complete mess. My choice would be for a differentiated higher rate of (marginal) taxation - e.g. you pay 33% as a non-grad on earnings over say £30k, and 34 or 35% as a graduate. That way, you only pay back for your education if you're doing well financially, and this SHOULDN'T scare poor kids (like me, when I was a kid anyway) off attending.

Tony and his cronies won't go for this, because they'd hate being blamed for income tax rises (so they put all the other taxes up instead).

There you go, Harry, reasoned debate. Good thread.

[Mrs RicheyJames]

@Randdebiel, Do I look like Lionel Blair?
@MrChris Nurses earn bog all anyway

[randdebiel²]

@Randdebiel, Do I look like Lionel Blair?
@MrChris Nurses earn bog all anyway

@Randdebiel, Do I look like Lionel Blair?
@MrChris Nurses earn bog all anyway

I was just trying to explain that "social relevance" isn't so easy to see....

[mayhem]

In theory I could have gone to university but in reality I couldn't- I needed to earn a living from the age of 17- despite having been sent kicking & screaming to a grammar school where I had to sit at a different table at lunch break because I was on free dinners..! (Maybe they thought I would give the rich kids nits or something...)

But later in life I met up again with my school's model pupil ( a very nice girl by the way, I liked her) & we were doing the same job. So her degree hadn't really boosted her earnings, although I'm sure it was fun.

All of this makes me ambivalent on this question & I'm inclined to agree with SG. If they're doing something that might have a use then fine. Otherwise it may well be an enriching experience, but I don't see why that should happen at everyone else's expense.

In this country we need to ditch the snobbery attached to a degree. A plumber is a damn sight more useful than a media studies graduate. But academic achievement is more valued than practical skills.

[snowey]

I still find it remarkable that I was able to leave school at 14 (loads of sagging school) with no qualifications and Mrs Snowey goes to Liverpool Poly for 4 years to get a BSc in Biology. One of us gets paid 6 and a half K more than the other?? Guess who??

It's a funny world....

Blimey snowey, I didn't know you could earn so much money just by subjecting yourself to medical experimentation and drug trials!

You try to make a serious point that degrees mean f**k all in the real world and some pikey comes along and try's to take the p*ss. Why do I bother??

[Candover Premiere]

[quote="mayhem"]
But academic achievement is more valued than practical skills.[/quote]

By whom? Why do you think that?

[Thrash Harry]

I still find it remarkable that I was able to leave school at 14 (loads of sagging school) with no qualifications and Mrs Snowey goes to Liverpool Poly for 4 years to get a BSc in Biology. One of us gets paid 6 and a half K more than the other?? Guess who??

It's a funny world....

Blimey snowey, I didn't know you could earn so much money just by subjecting yourself to medical experimentation and drug trials!

You try to make a serious point that degrees mean **** all in the real world and some pikey comes along and try's to take the p*ss. Why do I bother??

Because I asked you to and you were kind enough to tell me. Thanks. And to everyone else as well. The best read I've had in ages.

[MrChris]

@MrChris Nurses earn bog all anyway[/quote]

That was the point of what I suggested - if you earn bog all, you won't pay a higher marginal rate of tax, therefore you won't pay anything back. Sounds perfectly fair to me

[mayhem]

But academic achievement is more valued than practical skills.

By whom? Why do you think that?

Not by me, that's for sure. And I don't know where you're from. But in the UK there has always been a great snob appeal in a university degree compared to a 'trade'. My dad was a plasterer and a good one, but his apprenticeship didn't confer the same kind of status a degree would've.

I understand that in some more progressive countries this is not the case.

[MrChris]

My dad hated the fact that I might go to university, and not 'learn a trade'. He made all sorts of arguments about money and time and that kind of thing. At the bottom of it for many people is an idea that it will separate them from their children, and drive some kind of wedge of status between them. The sad thing is, it often does. Sometimes because of how their children learn to think at uni, or sometimes (saddest of all) because of how people 'back home' ASSUME you now think since you've been to uni. So obviously we may not think there's any real difference between someone who went to uni and someone who didn't, but life isn't simple, and it doesn't mean that differences don't grow up anyway.

[mh]

I was gonna post something else here but quickly realised that it would have gotten me branded a right-winger. Very contentious. In summary, the number of people with academic qualifications these days completely devalues these same academic qualifications, so people feel that they need more and better, and so the vicious circle continues. I won't go into the reasons why I think this was allowed happen though.

[MrChris]

Oh, go on, you tease.

[MrChris]

You're allowed to be right-wing, you know.

There are islands for people like you.

[Mrs RicheyJames]

No you're not LOL

[Thrash Harry]

I was gonna post something else here but quickly realised that it would have gotten me branded a right-winger. Very contentious.

I'm a life-long labour voter but I have the odd fascistic thought occasionally. As long as it's not overtly offensive, I doubt you'll get red carded. A lively debate never hurt anyone.

[MrChris]

I have nothing to say, but I am very happy with my new avatar. Simple things, eh?

[mh]

I have nothing to say, but I am very happy with my new avatar. Simple things, eh?

I'm very happy with your new avatar too!!!

I'll think of a way of putting it that's not too open to misinterpretation then.