Puzzled

[duskwind]

I'm sure this has been discussed a lot here and elsewhere, but it's a new topic for me and I don't know where else to go with my thoughts as they can't seem to leave my mind…

I grew up with the Sisters' music as a teenager in the mid to late 90s. I liked a lot of music and they never were my absolute favourite, but I loved the songs and they have remained with me until now.
I've seen a lot of bands live during the last 20 years, but there are still a couple left on my wishlist. The Sisters were one of them. Among all these bands and musicians were many with decades long histories like David Bowie, The Cure, The Stranglers, The Damned, The Stones, U2, Peter Murphy and loads more… I never expected any of them to sound like they did in their early days and I wouldn't want them to.
Being in my mid 30s now they all seemed old to me and most of them hadn't lived very healthy lives… For the most part they all delivered very fine performances and I'm sure all of them had some kind of health problems of varying degrees. I've got my own even at my age…

I had heard some not so good reports from people who had seen the Sisters before, so I knew not to expect too much and I can't exactly say I was disappointed afterwards… more puzzled and somewhat sad.
The sound was pretty good, the setlist was great, the guitarists are not bad, the smoke and mirrors were quite atmospheric.
But something that I loved most about the Sisters was missing…. That wonderfully deep and charistmatic voice of Andrew Eldritch.

At first I thought the mix wasn't very good… the guitars and backing vocals were too audible. After half the set I came to the conclusion that it's intentional.

I really wanted to like the show, but seeing him sneaking into and out of the fog it almost seemed like he was hiding from his own performance. It was almost painful to watch…. He was probably trying hard and I respect that. There are recordings from the Mera Luna shown in 2010 on YouTube. I would have been more than happy with that.

I had some voice training in the past, so I know there are ways to build up strength and stamina and it's not like he has impossible high notes to sing which does not work with an aging voice. I know AE is still smoking a lot, but so did Bowie and he performed an almost 3 hours set with a perfect voice when he was only a little younger… also so did Leonard Cohen and his voice sounded amazing even though he was a lot older still. It just leaves me puzzled…

I'd like to give another show a chance if they still tour next year, but is that really all that can still be expected? How can any performer be satisfied with this?

[Arrrgh!]

I think basically the issue is that Andrew managed the extremely cool trick of building a career for himself as a singer despite not really being able to sing.

The uniqueness of his baritone was his distinguishing feature as a younger man, and The Sisters were part of that punk anyone-can-do-it movement. It was at least partially a reaction to the virtuoso musicianship of the prog rock bands of the 1970s.

And here we are in 2017 and he basically has resisted looking after his voice. Or perhaps he has tried and has been unlucky and it's gone. The voice isn't what it once was, or so it seems. He's so low in the mix that it's hard to know. To be honest, the only way to know would be to hear it alone, or on a studio recording, and that doesn't seem likely.

Much of Vision thing and Floodland wasn't sung so much as chanted or vocalised. It sounded great but doesn't seem to translate to live performance so well.

The 'official' line is that he can't sing loudly, only quietly, so the sound mix is tailored for that. Personally that has always sat badly with me - surely that's what amplification is for?

A lot of the time his guttural growl is lost in the mix.

At any rate, it is what it is. I think taken on its own merits, the guys put on a good show. I'd love to see them bring Lisa Cuthbert on full time as a gigging member. Her voice filled out the range really well for the few gigs she did on this tour with them.

I don't want to sound too down on the Sisters, I remain a fan and will keep paying to see them as long as they keep offering gigs for our enjoyment. But things change.

[Izzy HaveMercy]

One of the main reasons why I stopped going to their gigs the last couple of years. I like a frontman with charisma, and in my eyes Andrew has lost that. There's nothing left of his baritone voice, and although I don't expect him to sound like a 20 year old rockgod, there's absolutely nothing left but some howls, growls and bites, like a wounded animal.

On top of that, if the singer ain't that good, I tend to concentrate on the rhythm section. The bass player in The Sisters is ermmm.... nonexistent. The drummer is the same old chugga-chugga from in the 90s and looks kinda sexy like only two Macbook Pros can look, but still...

Nope, they lost me live. I attend a lot of other gigs, mainly in the metal genre. I saw Dee Snider three years in a row for example, both solo and with Twisted Sister. He's 62, and sounds like a bell. Other examples are available, but I won't bore you with that.

There will be a lot of other opinions on this forum tho, and there will be a lot of positive ones. You're on a Sisters fan forum after all.

A lot of people still seem to enjoy The Sisters live, and I think that is the most important thing.

I will enjoy the albums and the pre-2000 bootlegs

IZ.

[abridged]

As ever this comes down to subjective opinion. I saw them in the 1990s also and I actually prefer them now. It's much more fun. Also inevitably nothing we like is the same as in our teens. The singers change and so do we. We haven't the same receptivity for stuff (thank goodness) that we had back in the day. I've saw quite a few for want of a better expression the 80s bands recently. Some have updated their sound. some haven't. Some were great, some not. The Sisters recent gigs have been really good in my opinion. But each to their own period. Live and let live etc!

[timsinister]

If, in some fantasy parallel universe, you could stack The Damned, Pete Murphy and The m*****n on the same bill as the Sisters, I'm afraid the girls would be blown off stage. These competing, veteran outfits simply sound superb - I'm not even a Mish fan, but Fall From Grace is a grand album.

I made no major effort to try and get to the Roundhouse gigs. I might change my mind if I see what the big 'shake-up' Von promised is.

[Pista]

I think it's a matter of consistency really.
Last week's Budapest show was the first time I've (personally) seen them where Von was noticeably low in the mix, but the techs seemed to be fighting with the board for the whole show.
In the same venue in 2011 he was perfectly okay & in the rescheduled one in 2009 I nearly fell over he was that loud.
BTW, welcome to the forum duskwind

[Bartek]

If mirrors is not enough then i have to words for you.

I could undersign under what Izzy had wrote, that band lost me for good. It's waste of money and time to buy ticket and go their gigs. I will cherish past glorious moments, gig that i witnesed over 11 years ago and albums.

[Arrrgh!]

Let's not be hasty. The Sisters of Mercy are a going concern. They're selling out respectable venues around Europe on an annual basis. The reality is that if they weren't a good live act, they wouldn't be doing that.

They do and they are.

The frustration stems from the idea that they were stellar and still could be so much more. It's hard. I listened to Vision Thing yesterday for the first time all the way through on a car journey and it's really good. Andrew's vocal's are high in the mix and clear.

The 'new' songs are credible, or at least were in the 1990s when they were first played. They had a decent fourth album in them. And then . . . . nothing. It's frustrating. But hey, this is nothing new. It's been frustrating for nigh on 20 years now.

[abridged]

I've read a million threads going where they've been before...

[Izzy HaveMercy]

They're selling out respectable venues around Europe on an annual basis. The reality is that if they weren't a good live act, they wouldn't be doing that.

I'm still not convinced by that.

I saw the last Black Sabbath show, and Ozzy's voice is really terrible. But the festival ground stood packed with fans that were singing along. Ozzy know he lost his voice, so he play the audience in doing it for him. Even I was yelling along with the songs. Hell, I even dit the hihat bit.

But the Sisters are, for a lot of people, still that nostalgia trip, and they enjoy themselves more because of that nostalgia trip I think. Maybe Von should make more effort to let the crowd sing along even more than they do already, instead of hanging out in the safety of the "exit stage left"?


IZ.

[Bartek]

@Arrrgh!: it has nothing with how they could be, it's how TSOM is, objectively. If you're among TSOM fans at gig, then you enjoy it a lot, but if you step back, you'll see faces of people who are not amused, not buying that music. Strange mix, low volume, no vox or lost after 30 seconds of "singing". Yes, AE seems to enjoy touring (playing gigs) more than he used to, he even wooing people to sing along chours parts.
But even that is not for what some people are willing to pay.
Yet, it's hard to deny that they are selling out much of their gigs.

[Dust Witch]

Realistically, it's not going to change a great deal or improve in quality from here. Von and the band are sounding the best they have in years on this tour so if that's not to your taste, you're probably best off leaving it be. It's weird to me that people need others to convince them to keep attending the gigs - you're the only one that can judge if it's worth your while, you don't lose points for staying home and enjoying them in your own way.

[duskwind]

Thanks a lot for all your replies and the welcome.

I'm aware this is a fan forum and I wanted opinions from people who've known them for a long time and are generally well meaning. Otherwise I could have just read some press critics...

I've been listening to the albums a bit more attentively regarding singing style after the show and I noticed that he rarely put much strength into singing. So it probably was effortless for him for a long time and now it isn't anymore... I still think he could have learned some more control and direction at the time when it wasn't easy anymore.
Alan Rickman and Jeremy Irons are two voice actors who struggled a lot with this during their early theatre days and they sure did learn... just trying not to compare only with other singers.
It seemed to me that another problem aside from strength was also articulation though and I know that he used to be a lot better at that.

On the other hand I have seen shows that were very well performed, but they still did nothing for me. The show on Saturday did not leave me cold at all and I'd like to add another better experience, because I can also imagine very well how good it could be.

Also I do not feel that I can judge a band's performance by just seeing one show. There are other bands who I've seen multiple times and it's never the same... sometimes due to a venue, sound system, the performer's wellbeing and very much also the mood of the audience...

[Drsisters]

Seen to many shows the past 26 years, althoguh, I as many others have my fave years, when I feel the sisters was icing the cake... As of late I took a sabatical from live shows, the last show I saw in 2011... Before that 2006..

I enjoyed the 30th anniversary and the shows that I saw in November that year.. This time around I restrained myself only to the shows in Gothenburg and Stockholm...

His voice as of 2017 can't be compared to 1991 or 1993.. but the energy is still there... Hell, it blew me away.. the kick I got in Gothenburg when they walked on stage, was even better then drugs and sex although, as of late I prefer one over the other one these days... Just seeing Dave dance behind the mac's was worth the money all alone...

I know we might never get a new song, or a new album, but goin to a show.. meeting ppl you havn't seen for years, meet new ppl and have a great f**king time is enough for me...

[Pista]

Just seeing Dave dance behind the mac's was worth the money all alone...

He was on fire wasn't he?
Was hard to keep my eyes of him in Budapest

[Being645]

I've been listening to the albums a bit more attentively regarding singing style after the show and I noticed that he rarely put much strength into singing. So it probably was effortless for him for a long time and now it isn't anymore... I still think he could have learned some more control and direction at the time when it wasn't easy anymore.

Hi duskwind ... welcome to the forum ... it's been with pleasure that I read your first post and also the recent one.

As to the singing style ... I think that especially FALAA recordings took a very long time and endless re-re-re-recordings, because Andrew put an enormous lot effort into a) every word of the lyrics and b) find out about his voice in detail and make sure that his vocals would convey them as perfect as possible ... never so during gigs, which have always been the acutalised improvisation of the day. An old tradtion in music, although it might be interesting to know who first started being bold enough NOT to present their music exactly as on record as soon as records were invented and henceforth created according expectations among listeners. Could it be, that developed from resistence and underground chansonniers in the 1920s? Don't know.

[czuczu]

Duskwind, which show did you see?

I'm not sure the issues are just with his voice but he does seem massively under prepared and he does lose his place in songs quite often - wonder if he's a bit mutton these days..

[duskwind]

@ czuczu: Schlachthof Wiesbaden

@ Being645: Thanks

@ Everyone: Thanks for the reasonable and informative replies... I fully expected a s**t coming my way after writing this...

[panzerfaust]

you got the guitarists singing now instead of eldritch. shrug. they got like zero charisma in their voice and they even do those funny curls at the end of some notes like the noobs in x factor. meeh.
each to their own.
im just a bitter heretic

[Afflikönig]

Just seeing Dave dance behind the mac's was worth the money all alone...

He was on fire wasn't he?
Was hard to keep my eyes of him in Budapest

His son posts on another forum I frequent. I mentioned how entertaining Dave's dancing / shirt combo were, he said he wouold be sure to pass on the compliment

[EmmaPeelWannaBe]

I travel a great distance to see them. Some of the gigs are fantastic and some not so much. That's the thing about live performances. They vary.
And if people don't like they way they sound don't go to the gigs. But please let the rest of us have our fun. And it is our money and our time.

[centurionofprix]

i have to defend his voice/vocal styling; i love it and think it suits especially the newer songs like arms perfectly (which i wish they'd include more in the setlist as they feel closer in spirit to the current band, but ofc one wants the classics too)
his loss of range in notes and volume is felt in songs like logic though, at least if you want them interpreted like the album version

The 'official' line is that he can't sing loudly, only quietly, so the sound mix is tailored for that. Personally that has always sat badly with me - surely that's what amplification is for?

if i've understood it the problem comes from boosting the high end of his vocal for clarity together with the need to compensate for his very quiet singing, making his his mic prone to feeding back
which seems true since he does struggle with feedback in some shows

the (few) gigs i've attended did not have problems like that but going by reports of those, sometimes you wonder what would happen if, on the bad nights, they just went with volume instead of trying to convey nuances of tone in his voice that you can't really hear anyway

[Norman Hunter]

I might change my mind if I see what the big 'shake-up' Von promised is.

My white Thunderbird is packed and ready...

[timsinister]

Like we said elsewhere on the forum, there's a limit to how many Chromedomes you can put on one stage!

The new songs are kicking, I must say. The fabled fourth album would sound fantastic if they'd release it. I still cherish a soft spot for them I guess.

This must be what religion is like. "Von moves in mysterious ways".

[Arrrgh!]

Just on the off chance this forum carries any weight, I too would love to hear a new album. I'd settle for a properly recorded live album to be honest.

Who am I kidding. I'd settle for ANYTHING.