Following Vision Thing 91-94

[ReptileHause]

Was there ever any chance of The Sisters following up to Vision Thing with a new album within the early to mid 90s?

Presumably, there is serious pressure to follow up your last album, keep the momentum etc. Even allowing the Some Girls/Overbombing placeholders, there have got to have been concerns at the lack of "new product" during that period.

Assuming YCBTO was cut during the VT session that's 2 studio booking - reworking Temple, the UTG/Alice - producing only one new song in four years! And that was half written before he got his hands on it...

The pressure on Eldritch carrying a arena(ish) seized band on just charisma and cheekbones must've been enormous! And rhe VT era band had four songwriters! Surely they could have knocked something out? Were they not asked, not contributing or simply not required? I don't think I ever heard stories of anything being tried out in soundchecks, demoing something in the studio...

Sure there were label issues but, I can absolutely imagine the label having their own issues about him noti getting his finger out and writing some more f**king songs!

Or was VT the endgame? A last flourish, the final loorshow before milking the catalogue - and I honestly don't mean that negatively as the shows were great - but did he know there was nothing left in the tank and that the end, or at least that end, was inevitable?

[FadeInto1]

Short version is: he wanted to put music out, label had requirements, stalemate was reached, contract was fulfilled through a best-of and a wilfully-annoying techno record.

Semi-serious attempts to drum up new label interest followed, but the very reasonable realisation that it might not be worth the bother settled in over time.

I think there's a very real chance that a fourth Sisters album would have been crap. The other 3 were all created out of very different but very specific commercial and artistic motivators. I feel like a 4th record released in the 90s would have been a "because we may as well/because we were told to" record so might have lacked the vision or impetus of the others. Could have resulted in an unfocused, rudimentary or boring album. The difference between a uni assignment you do because you're passionate about the topic vs one you do because you need the marks.

I don't believe they ever planned to go Indie or release DIY

[ReptileHause]

Thanks for the response but I was thinking more in the timeline 90-94, prior to the stalemate. If he wanted to put out a record - what was it? What did he have that the label had issues with. Actually just remembered Come Together was performed in 93, and I can't see them having a problem with that. The whole SVV comes later.

[Gaijin]

There was to have been a remix album, hence the More '93 single. Come Together was debuted in '93 so some writing was done. The '97 lineup was filmed at the Forum for a planned release.

[mh]

This is pieced together based on my recollection from interviews and articles at the time, together with information that has since come to light.

The relationship with the record company had collapsed by 1991. Von was unhappy with the backing he'd received for the Public Enemy tour, and there were likely other factors, some of which might have gone back for years.

In the run up to the Reading Festival there was talk of the band still feeling energised due to the US/PE tour being cut short, and plans to go into the studio after the festival, with something happening in 1992 being a definite prospect.

That turned out to be Temple 92. I can't say whether that was always the plan, or if the idea of new songs was in any way entertained at the time.

Roundabout this time Tony James leaves the band.

Andreas Bruhn was always going to go off and do a solo record, that was publicly well-known at the time, even at quite an early stage.

That left Von and Tim as the core. Tim went off to do his CNN/XCNN thing, and there were comments from Von at the time that this was something Tim had to get out of his system but wasn't suitable for the Sisters. That seems to hint at an attempt at writing together that didn't work out.

Adam came in, 1993 happened, and Von put the band on hiatus. In other interviews he talked about doing one or two more Sisters LPs, then what he called Metal Machine Music 2, an LP designed and intended to get him out of his contract.

Little or no songwriting was done. Come Together was an old song, from 1985, originally titled Ritual and planned as part of the Left on m*****n and Revenge project. Losing Tony, losing Andreas, and what seems like musical differences with Tim might have been factors. Gary Marx has since commented that the band were never prolific, not even in the early days.

The music climate at the time was grunge, US alternative rock, and the first rumblings of britpop. Things were about to turn very conservative for a while. Other bands that were contemporaries of the Sisters had peaked and were beginning their slide down. Von can't have been unaware of that.

And that, I think, is that. Unless something else comes to mind. Under those circumstances a fourth LP was never happening, and the Sisters would have joined the ranks of those bands that collapsed immediately after their peak. In the end what Von did ended up saving them, but as to whether or not that was intentional, only he can say.

[Fodderstompf]

Andreas Bruhn wrote a lot of songs for the Sisters, but AE refused to even listen to the tapes he was handed (sounds familiar). These songs became his solo album „Broon“. Source: his interview with German „Zillo“ magazine in 1993. If you want to know what a theoretical follow-up album would have sounded like, had AE been willing to collaborate with Bruhn, Bruhn‘s solo album gives you a hint. These are decent songs, but his vocals are not too convincing, at least in my opinion.

[alanm]

AE refused to even listen to the tapes he was handed (sounds familiar).

The She's a Monster episode must have been one giant moment of validation for a lifetime of being a dick about this sort of thing

[Husek]

AE refused to even listen to the tapes he was handed (sounds familiar).

The She's a Monster episode must have been one giant moment of validation for a lifetime of being a dick about this sort of thing

As in, that time he was pumping songs without much filter, and ended up playing a plagiarized song? And the fact that was a one-time thing kinda confirms it?

[Dan]

and a wilfully-annoying techno record.

I've wondered about that. He owed them a album (contractual obligation).
So he gave them a crappy album and they didn't release it because it was crap, and instead released him from his contract.
Record companies don't work like that.
Conclusion: he's still signed to them and that's why he can't release a record with anyone else, but he's also too stubborn just to deliver them a damn record even though he has plenty of material for several albums.
The only thing against that theory is - if he was still signed to them they'd have got fed up of waiting and surreptitiously recorded a show from the desk and released a live album by now.

[Husek]

and a wilfully-annoying techno record.

I've wondered about that. He owed them a album (contractual obligation).
So he gave them a crappy album and they didn't release it because it was crap, and instead released him from his contract.
Record companies don't work like that.
Conclusion: he's still signed to them and that's why he can't release a record with anyone else, but he's also too stubborn just to deliver them a damn record even though he has plenty of material for several albums.
The only thing against that theory is - if he was still signed to them they'd have got fed up of waiting and surreptitiously recorded a show from the desk and released a live album by now.

Nah, lots of insiders confirmed that neither Von or the girls are under a label contract anymore, at least since late 1997/mid 1998.

[H. Blackrose]

So he gave them a crappy album and they didn't release it because it was crap, and instead released him from his contract.
Record companies don't work like that.

Yes they do

Conclusion: he's still signed to them and that's why he can't release a record with anyone else

Point refuted a thousand times on here, notably by an actual contract lawyer. The reason for the popularity of this narrative is that it makes people think that they've caught Eldritch in a lie and are thus smarter than him

[FadeInto1]

and a wilfully-annoying techno record.

I've wondered about that. He owed them a album (contractual obligation).
So he gave them a crappy album and they didn't release it because it was crap, and instead released him from his contract.
Record companies don't work like that.
Conclusion: he's still signed to them and that's why he can't release a record with anyone else, but he's also too stubborn just to deliver them a damn record even though he has plenty of material for several albums.
The only thing against that theory is - if he was still signed to them they'd have got fed up of waiting and surreptitiously recorded a show from the desk and released a live album by now.

Well, you might recall that when he was signed to a label, he didn't really hesitate in speaking publicly about how much disdain he held for them and how strongly he disagreed with their approach. I wouldn't presume to fathom the man's mind, but it seems fairly unlikely to me that he'd now just turn around and lie and claim that it's all a choice when it isn't.

[FadeInto1]

Thanks for the response but I was thinking more in the timeline 90-94, prior to the stalemate. If he wanted to put out a record - what was it? What did he have that the label had issues with. Actually just remembered Come Together was performed in 93, and I can't see them having a problem with that. The whole SVV comes later.

To this point: he'd already more or less given up on the idea of working productively with the record label by 94 - there are interviews and comments etc where he talks, directly or indirectly, about how the label was only willing to commercially exploit him in particular ways. The part that admittedly goes unsaid, but which I think is fairly well implied, is I think they wanted him to make music and take an approach to promotion that they could market to goths or similar. Eldritch has been on the record since then as saying that he's quite happy to take goth money when he's in control as a touring only outfit, but I can certainly appreciate that spending the 90s under the thumb of a label that tries to position him in ways with which he's uncomfortable might have seemed like a low-value proposition.

The SSV thing is relevant insofar as it indicates that Eldritch probably did want to make another record in the 90s (either a Sisters record or something else), and felt he'd built up enough momentum to make it a viable commerical proposition. He might not have bothered with that whole SSV stunt if he didn't want to clear the road legally for making a record with a more cooperative commercial partner than the label he was signed to. I doubt it was just a prank or a bit of house-clearing admin.

[Todashi]

The part that admittedly goes unsaid, but which I think is fairly well implied, is I think they wanted him to make music and take an approach to promotion that they could market to goths or similar. Eldritch has been on the record since then as saying that he's quite happy to take goth money when he's in control as a touring only outfit, but I can certainly appreciate that spending the 90s under the thumb of a label that tries to position him in ways with which he's uncomfortable might have seemed like a low-value proposition.

I think he was right. Sure, it would have been good to get lots of great Sisters albums, but just take a look at how it went down for people who had no qualms stepping into the spotlight as mainstream, major label goths - Can you really see Von playing a Marilyn Manson type role, leaning into skin tight black rubber, white face paint and pseudo shock lyrics, just for the cash?

I can't.

[ribbons69]

Von should be playing the same arenas that The Cure and Nick Cave are but he isn't because ultimately he doesn't like making records and thinks he's better at the music business than everybody else.
I don't buy into any of this "WEA wanted him to be a Goff" scenario. He didn't make a record after Vision Thing because he didn't want to.

[FadeInto1]

Von should be playing the same arenas that The Cure and Nick Cave are but he isn't because ultimately he doesn't like making records and thinks he's better at the music business than everybody else.
I don't buy into any of this "WEA wanted him to be a Goff" scenario. He didn't make a record after Vision Thing because he didn't want to.

That's not the entirety of what I said though. That's a possible reason he didn't want to make a record with WEA after Vision Thing. He objected to the way they proposed to market and exploit him.

It's clear at some point later on in the 90s some consideration was given to making records elsewhere. I think the decision to pack in the recording happened around then, when the interest he received was not suitable.

[MrChris]

I’m also surprised by the idea that WEA wanted TSOM to make a Goff album. Surely the whole point of Vision Thing is that AE was being pressured to make AOR aimed at the US market, and so he decided to say “here you go then, I hope you choke on it.”

[FadeInto1]

Guys. The trick is to read the words I wrote.

I never said "make a goth album". I said make an album that could be marketed to goths. That whole alternative/industrial thing that was going on at that time was one of about six pre-defined MTV market segments into which all bands seemed to be square-pegged into, regardless of how they sounded or how connected to that particular "scene" they were. Do you guys not remember this?

My suggestion was not that he was required to make an album that sounded a particular way, my suggestion was that he'd have to do a particular kind of promotion, appear in particular kinds of content, and frankly, play certain kinds of promotional gigs, all for the sake of making someone else rich. For two more albums.

Surely you were all there in the 90s? Surely you remember this phenomenon as rife? What do you think Eldritch was getting at when complaining that his record wouldn't exploit him competently, or that they thought he was more Ozzy Osborne than Michael Stipe? He was explaining that cooperating with the label meant wasting time in places he didn't want to be, doing things he didn't want to do. At the same time, he was insisting that the band needed certain budgets, needed to be afforded a certain scale of operations, etc. He wanted the label to make a large investment in him, and the label was of the view that the only way to see a return on such an investment was to market him safely, with all that that entails. Cue deadlock.

[ReptileHause]

AE refused to even listen to the tapes he was handed (sounds familiar).

The She's a Monster episode must have been one giant moment of validation for a lifetime of being a dick about this sort of thing

As in, that time he was pumping songs without much filter, and ended up playing a plagiarized song? And the fact that was a one-time thing kinda confirms it?

Can't believe that was deliberate though. I mean, to what end? Clearly they had hit a rich vein in material why deliberately throw something like that in unless there was more going on which all built up into that night in the Roundhouse ...

[MrChris]

Guys. The trick is to read the words I wrote.

I never said "make a goth album". I said make an album that could be marketed to goths.

The point still stands though, which is that we lack evidence that WEA wanted TSOM to make records that could be specifically marketed to Goffs. The view at the time was that they wanted them to make American-oriented rock, which is why AE gave them Vision Thing (as a giant middle finger in vinyl form).

[Dan]

The She's a Monster episode must have been one giant moment of validation for a lifetime of being a dick about this sort of thing

As in, that time he was pumping songs without much filter, and ended up playing a plagiarized song? And the fact that was a one-time thing kinda confirms it?

Can't believe that was deliberate though. I mean, to what end? Clearly they had hit a rich vein in material why deliberately throw something like that in unless there was more going on which all built up into that night in the Roundhouse ...

She's A Monster was plagiarised? From what?
Can someone fill in the details, I have no clue what that's about, I just searched and found nothing useful.

[sultan2075]

As in, that time he was pumping songs without much filter, and ended up playing a plagiarized song? And the fact that was a one-time thing kinda confirms it?

Can't believe that was deliberate though. I mean, to what end? Clearly they had hit a rich vein in material why deliberately throw something like that in unless there was more going on which all built up into that night in the Roundhouse ...

She's A Monster was plagiarised? From what?
Can someone fill in the details, I have no clue what that's about, I just searched and found nothing useful.

Yeah, and I assume that's the reason it got played once and only once. I also assume that's a part of the reason Dylan got sacked (as I tell my students, intentional vs. unintentional doesn't really matter in these cases. I remember I once wrote a lead line for a song I was working on with a friend, I thought it was great, and then he tells me "brother, that's the melody from 'Fix.'" So I get that it happens, but we were a s**t garage band rather than an internationally renowned legacy act).

There's a link somewhere around here to the song that it's nicked from.

[Husek]

As in, that time he was pumping songs without much filter, and ended up playing a plagiarized song? And the fact that was a one-time thing kinda confirms it?

Can't believe that was deliberate though. I mean, to what end? Clearly they had hit a rich vein in material why deliberately throw something like that in unless there was more going on which all built up into that night in the Roundhouse ...

She's A Monster was plagiarised? From what?
Can someone fill in the details, I have no clue what that's about, I just searched and found nothing useful.

[Fodderstompf]

God, this it itself borrowed from parts of „Temple of Love“…

[ribbons69]

Guys. The trick is to read the words I wrote.

I never said "make a goth album". I said make an album that could be marketed to goths. That whole alternative/industrial thing that was going on at that time was one of about six pre-defined MTV market segments into which all bands seemed to be square-pegged into, regardless of how they sounded or how connected to that particular "scene" they were. Do you guys not remember this?

What I remember of 1994 was Grunge in the US along with stuff like Pavement, and "Britpop" here in the UK with Oasis, Pulp and Blur. I'm not sure why a record label would be pushing a Goff agenda back then. Marilyn Manson pushing the Goff look wasn't until 1996.
They'd be more likely trying to put Von in a flannel shirt rather than black bondage gear.