I have petitioned the following "Proposals to tackle anti-social behaviour" on the Scottish Parliament Website, e-petitions. The website for e-petition signatures; discussions; comments and information. I would be grateful if you could sign the petition.
LINK:
http://itc.napier.ac.uk/e-petition-scot ... TopicID=19
PETITION - anti-social behaviour
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markfiend
- goriller of form 3b
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http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.htm
And that's before I even looked at your petition. Some of the measures you are asking for are a little extreme don't you think?Claim: Â Signing and circulating online petitions is an effective way of remedying important issues.
Status: Â False.
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
—Bertrand Russell
—Bertrand Russell
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Ian - Rhythm Smurph
- Utterly Bastard Smurph
- Posts: 171
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Oh deary me!
Mandatory Neighbourhood Watch Schemes!!!
A state informer for every cul-de-sac eh?
And who decides what is anti-social behavior eh?
- legislation that would prevent dense pockets of people living in neighbourhoods who cause anti-social behavior; - so we house a nice ‘respectable’ middle class family between trouble makers on estates do we - are you volunteering McKenzie
Is this someone who has joined this forum purely to further their own political end?
On a forum which is essential a community of mostly rational, intelligent and open minded people I find this posting to be anti-social behavior. I hereby demand you stand in front of a CCTV camera and report yourself to the ‘undercover anti-social behavior officers’ forthwith!
Seriously – I understand how some people are terrorized by unruly thugs and vandals – everyone has the right to feel safe and secure in their own home and I have every sympathy for those who’s lives are shattered by bad behavior – but as ever I think the police already have enough powers to deal with this kind of thing – the trouble as always tends to be the reluctance of people to get involved or come forward or to support members of their own community – granted this may be through fear often times, but just as often people don’t bother standing up and being counted until they are directly effected and then wonder why no one supports them.
I don’t pretend to have the answer, but accelerating this country’s advancement towards a police state hardly seems the right course of action to me.
Or have I just fallen hook, line and sinker for a TROLL?
Mandatory Neighbourhood Watch Schemes!!!
A state informer for every cul-de-sac eh?
And who decides what is anti-social behavior eh?
- legislation that would prevent dense pockets of people living in neighbourhoods who cause anti-social behavior; - so we house a nice ‘respectable’ middle class family between trouble makers on estates do we - are you volunteering McKenzie
Is this someone who has joined this forum purely to further their own political end?
On a forum which is essential a community of mostly rational, intelligent and open minded people I find this posting to be anti-social behavior. I hereby demand you stand in front of a CCTV camera and report yourself to the ‘undercover anti-social behavior officers’ forthwith!
Seriously – I understand how some people are terrorized by unruly thugs and vandals – everyone has the right to feel safe and secure in their own home and I have every sympathy for those who’s lives are shattered by bad behavior – but as ever I think the police already have enough powers to deal with this kind of thing – the trouble as always tends to be the reluctance of people to get involved or come forward or to support members of their own community – granted this may be through fear often times, but just as often people don’t bother standing up and being counted until they are directly effected and then wonder why no one supports them.
I don’t pretend to have the answer, but accelerating this country’s advancement towards a police state hardly seems the right course of action to me.
Or have I just fallen hook, line and sinker for a TROLL?
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andymackem
- Slight Overbomber
- Posts: 1191
- Joined: 17 Dec 2003, 10:11
- Location: Darkest Durham
Specialised police force? Great, but who pays? Sounds like a tax hike to me.
Mandatory N/W schemes? Waste of time. Either you generate a huge volume of non-event calls because every unfamiliar parked car causes a furore, or you get no response at all because nobody cares enough or is too frightened to come forward.
The sad thing is, without wishing to belittle the issue, most of the people I have encountered who are claiming to have been victimised by anti-social behaviour turn out to be anti-social themselves. In my days as a news reporter I had more than one chap contact me with tales of how he'd had to turn his home into a fortress, install and fund his own CCTV etc because he was "not prepared to be a prisoner in my own home". A quick call to the local police, for a bit of background about the legality of filming private citizens walking past someone's house would more often than not reveal a series of complaints against the household in question.
After much consideration, and having lived in several different areas of the UK, I'm forced to conclude that most crime that takes place happens for a very good reason and there are rather fewer "innocent victims" than we tend to assume. I'm not denying that it _does_ happen, but the impression of a world where you or I or anyone else is running a daily gauntlet by emerging into a world where random violence and criminality could stumble upon us at any moment simply does not co-incide with reality.
That's no consolation to the genuinely innocent victims, but it should be hugely reassuring to the rest of us.
Mandatory N/W schemes? Waste of time. Either you generate a huge volume of non-event calls because every unfamiliar parked car causes a furore, or you get no response at all because nobody cares enough or is too frightened to come forward.
The sad thing is, without wishing to belittle the issue, most of the people I have encountered who are claiming to have been victimised by anti-social behaviour turn out to be anti-social themselves. In my days as a news reporter I had more than one chap contact me with tales of how he'd had to turn his home into a fortress, install and fund his own CCTV etc because he was "not prepared to be a prisoner in my own home". A quick call to the local police, for a bit of background about the legality of filming private citizens walking past someone's house would more often than not reveal a series of complaints against the household in question.
After much consideration, and having lived in several different areas of the UK, I'm forced to conclude that most crime that takes place happens for a very good reason and there are rather fewer "innocent victims" than we tend to assume. I'm not denying that it _does_ happen, but the impression of a world where you or I or anyone else is running a daily gauntlet by emerging into a world where random violence and criminality could stumble upon us at any moment simply does not co-incide with reality.
That's no consolation to the genuinely innocent victims, but it should be hugely reassuring to the rest of us.
Names are just a souvenir ...
Russian footie in the run-up to the World Cup - my latest E-book available from https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07DGJFF6G
Russian footie in the run-up to the World Cup - my latest E-book available from https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07DGJFF6G
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Mrs RicheyJames
- Overbomber
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- Location: Rick Astley's house. Trying to find out why he chooses to look like Timsinister.
Ian - Rhythm Smurph wrote:Oh deary me!
Mandatory Neighbourhood Watch Schemes!!!
A state informer for every cul-de-sac eh?
And who decides what is anti-social behavior eh?
- legislation that would prevent dense pockets of people living in neighbourhoods who cause anti-social behavior; - so we house a nice ‘respectable’ middle class family between trouble makers on estates do we - are you volunteering McKenzie
Is this someone who has joined this forum purely to further their own political end?
On a forum which is essential a community of mostly rational, intelligent and open minded people I find this posting to be anti-social behavior. I hereby demand you stand in front of a CCTV camera and report yourself to the ‘undercover anti-social behavior officers’ forthwith!
Seriously – I understand how some people are terrorized by unruly thugs and vandals – everyone has the right to feel safe and secure in their own home and I have every sympathy for those who’s lives are shattered by bad behavior – but as ever I think the police already have enough powers to deal with this kind of thing – the trouble as always tends to be the reluctance of people to get involved or come forward or to support members of their own community – granted this may be through fear often times, but just as often people don’t bother standing up and being counted until they are directly effected and then wonder why no one supports them.
I don’t pretend to have the answer, but accelerating this country’s advancement towards a police state hardly seems the right course of action to me.
Or have I just fallen hook, line and sinker for a TROLL?
Mr Rhythm Smurph, you don't post very often but when you do ...........
Only a paand.
Markfriend, do you think it extreme that a couple with learning disabilities have to board up every window of their house because they get constantly harrassed by neds? Do you think it extreme for residents' on an estate to arm themselves with airguns as they are being attacked with fireworks? I could give you hundreds of similar situations.So why are my proposals "extreme"
Ian-Rythm Smurf, There are already some 2000 notepads given to residents in an area where they fill out the notepads and post them to the police anon. Mandator NW, there would be more people reporting as the Neds know that a mandatory NW is in the area as it would be displayed as it is now, but there is no one person co-ordinating it. Specialised Police force, how much money long-term would be saved if these Neds who start off young know there is a consequence to their actions or as now, wait till they get older into worse crime then try to solve it with the expense of social workers; judiciary;..... etc . The only people worried about CCTV are people who have something to hide. Your days as a news reporter, do you know any news reporter who knows how to report the 100% truth, the facts, I don't think so. Also I have lived all over the country, now if you had lived in some of the more rougher areas, you would have more understanding, but I would presume you didn't. To view an issue from the outside is much easier than actually living it. I have communicated with more community groups; individuals than you have in your whole life, so I know what I am talking about, so please do not patronise me and others who have suffered days; weeks; months; years of anti-social behaviour and yes most are hard working law abiding citizens, so give them a break with your generalised, probably ignorant views, when you do not know much about the issue.
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andymackem
- Slight Overbomber
- Posts: 1191
- Joined: 17 Dec 2003, 10:11
- Location: Darkest Durham
You have no idea where I have and haven't lived, so don't patronise me.McKenzie wrote:Your days as a news reporter, do you know any news reporter who knows how to report the 100% truth, the facts, I don't think so.
Also I have lived all over the country, now if you had lived in some of the more rougher areas, you would have more understanding, but I would presume you didn't. To view an issue from the outside is much easier than actually living it. I have communicated with more community groups; individuals than you have in your whole life, so I know what I am talking about, so please do not patronise me and others who have suffered days; weeks; months; years of anti-social behaviour and yes most are hard working law abiding citizens, so give them a break with your generalised, probably ignorant views, when you do not know much about the issue.
Also, you have no idea of my work, so don't slate my entire profession because you don't like the work of _some_ journalists.
If this is your stock reaction to anyone who disagrees with you I'm forced to conclude that you are an ignorant bigot of the first order. You may "know what you are talking about", but your inability to express your views constructively makes that largely irrelevant.
Your first response to any criticism is to attack the person criticising you, even though you know nothing at all about them. I'd suggest you take a long, hard look at yourself before telling me about my life experience and professional ethics.
Goodbye and good luck.
Names are just a souvenir ...
Russian footie in the run-up to the World Cup - my latest E-book available from https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07DGJFF6G
Russian footie in the run-up to the World Cup - my latest E-book available from https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07DGJFF6G
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Ian - Rhythm Smurph
- Utterly Bastard Smurph
- Posts: 171
- Joined: 16 Sep 2002, 01:00
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McKenzie:
If you post to a public forum you must expect that not everybody agrees with you.
I took the time to read your post, follow the link and read the details of your petition and to understand your issue - if I had agreed with your petition l'd have signed - I didn't and so I didn't.
If you re-read my post you'll see that I didn't disagree with the existence of your problem - I merely suggested that your solution, in my opinion was a step to far for a 'free' democratic society.
Any society has to decide where the line is to be drawn. For freedoms to exist, there will always be those who abuse those freedoms. Any society has to decide what is and isn't to be considered a crime, and further more, how those things designated a crime are to be tackled. And while I think most people would agree with you abut these behavious being unacceptable and deserving to be considered criminal, the area we disagree on, I think, is the nature of the way we tackle it.
I apologise for the flippant tone of my opening paragraphs - most people on this forum can take that kind of language and it is very much the tone of many of the posting here.
I'm sorry you feel patronised, though you hardly stand as a paragon of courtesy with some of the statements in your post.
And just for the record - I also have lived all over the country including 'the rougher' areas, and so please don't assume that there is only one (ie your) conclusion to be drawn from first hand knowledge of these problems.
Statements such as "The only people worried about CCTV are people who have something to hide" are trotted out always in reaction to things like CCTV, ID cards etc. This attitude has been proved wrong the world over time after time - though I really don't want to get into civil liberties arguments here as I think written forums can be cumbersome when getting into intricate debates of this nature.
Also - if you are going to descend into patronising toned arguments("generalised, probably ignorant views", "do you know any news reporter who knows how to report the 100% truth, the facts, I don't think so" etc) at least get your facts straight - if you look again you will notice the post about 'reporters' was noting to do with me.
So in short - I applaud you commitment to trying to get something done about a problem you recognise. And if you manage to force a debate on these issue then you have my full support.
But I can not in all conscience support the erecting of more CCTV cameras, mandatory Neighbourhood watch schemes or a special police squad to tackle this issue alone.
I feel strongly that these kind of problems arise due to a break down in community and repect for fellow individuals - I would prefer to look at the causes and tackle them, rather than band-aid the symptoms. I belive people need to take more reposibility for their own actions and be better educated as to cause and effect. I don't think every problem should be tackled through criminal legislation.
I suspect we agree on rather more than you may assume, and the fact people like yourself are getting involved in social issues is one of the reasons I don’t agree with the mainstream view that people are all out for themselves.
I wish you luck - and if your petetion yield results then sobeit - thats democracy and I accept it.
I would suggest that the best way to use forums to solve issues it to garner opinions and have a debate about how to tackle such issues. This may yield better results in the long run than coming with ready made solutions and demanding support - you did after all post "I would be grateful if you could sign the petition." rather than, have a look at the details and if you agree please sign - which would have been a more polite approach and shown some repect that people may not agree.
If you post to a public forum you must expect that not everybody agrees with you.
I took the time to read your post, follow the link and read the details of your petition and to understand your issue - if I had agreed with your petition l'd have signed - I didn't and so I didn't.
If you re-read my post you'll see that I didn't disagree with the existence of your problem - I merely suggested that your solution, in my opinion was a step to far for a 'free' democratic society.
Any society has to decide where the line is to be drawn. For freedoms to exist, there will always be those who abuse those freedoms. Any society has to decide what is and isn't to be considered a crime, and further more, how those things designated a crime are to be tackled. And while I think most people would agree with you abut these behavious being unacceptable and deserving to be considered criminal, the area we disagree on, I think, is the nature of the way we tackle it.
I apologise for the flippant tone of my opening paragraphs - most people on this forum can take that kind of language and it is very much the tone of many of the posting here.
I'm sorry you feel patronised, though you hardly stand as a paragon of courtesy with some of the statements in your post.
And just for the record - I also have lived all over the country including 'the rougher' areas, and so please don't assume that there is only one (ie your) conclusion to be drawn from first hand knowledge of these problems.
Statements such as "The only people worried about CCTV are people who have something to hide" are trotted out always in reaction to things like CCTV, ID cards etc. This attitude has been proved wrong the world over time after time - though I really don't want to get into civil liberties arguments here as I think written forums can be cumbersome when getting into intricate debates of this nature.
Also - if you are going to descend into patronising toned arguments("generalised, probably ignorant views", "do you know any news reporter who knows how to report the 100% truth, the facts, I don't think so" etc) at least get your facts straight - if you look again you will notice the post about 'reporters' was noting to do with me.
So in short - I applaud you commitment to trying to get something done about a problem you recognise. And if you manage to force a debate on these issue then you have my full support.
But I can not in all conscience support the erecting of more CCTV cameras, mandatory Neighbourhood watch schemes or a special police squad to tackle this issue alone.
I feel strongly that these kind of problems arise due to a break down in community and repect for fellow individuals - I would prefer to look at the causes and tackle them, rather than band-aid the symptoms. I belive people need to take more reposibility for their own actions and be better educated as to cause and effect. I don't think every problem should be tackled through criminal legislation.
I suspect we agree on rather more than you may assume, and the fact people like yourself are getting involved in social issues is one of the reasons I don’t agree with the mainstream view that people are all out for themselves.
I wish you luck - and if your petetion yield results then sobeit - thats democracy and I accept it.
I would suggest that the best way to use forums to solve issues it to garner opinions and have a debate about how to tackle such issues. This may yield better results in the long run than coming with ready made solutions and demanding support - you did after all post "I would be grateful if you could sign the petition." rather than, have a look at the details and if you agree please sign - which would have been a more polite approach and shown some repect that people may not agree.
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Ian - Rhythm Smurph
- Utterly Bastard Smurph
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PS - I still half think there is a Troll at work here!
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Mrs. Snowey
- Utterly Bastard Groovy Amphetamine Filth
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- Joined: 12 Mar 2004, 14:43
- Location: going nowhere. Fast.
I really, truly despise this attitude. It goes hand in hand with the idea that ID cards will automatically cut crime, end "illegal" immigration etc. etc. ad nauseaum.McKenzie wrote:The only people worried about CCTV are people who have something to hide..
Just because there are more watchers doesnt mean anything. and I think the police and judiciary have quite enough powers anyway, thank you very much. All, they need to do is apply them properly. Maybe in certain cases they don't, but wouldn't we be better off sorting out the reasons behind that rather than heightening the atmosphere of suspicion that certain parties seemingly wish to promote?
I seem to remember a report where it stated that the fear of crime is greater than actual crime. And before it is asked, no I do not live in a leafy green suburb with freckle-faced newspaper boys shouting "Express delivery" . But even if it were Mossside, I would refuse to be scared into submission. Because the fear of crime as far as I can see only serves to alienate people from their own society.
I am certainly not saying that problems do not exist, but installing mass CCTV, compulsory NW programmes etc. is NOT the way to solve them.
BTW, MegaCity One has an excellent record in controlling crime in this way. Our cubes are always full of offenders, and may I recommend our "Judge Pal" service, where the kids can enrol in their own club which allows them to inform AND win great prizes.
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Black Planet
- Andrew's Love Goddess
- Posts: 2170
- Joined: 02 Jun 2003, 20:16
My two cents are going to be very short.
I don't like the idea of being spied upon by tv cameras posted upon every street corner like you have in UK. I don't know what crime it stops, to me it's an invasion of my privacy in the same manner of some creep looking through peep holes in bathroom doors at ppl. As for neighbors spying on neighbors and turning them into the authorities for whatever?????...didn't we have that in Nazi Germany (Ann Franke springs to mind) and in Soviet Union? Neither way is the route to take to solve any problem.
@ Ian: Your right on in your assessments.
I don't like the idea of being spied upon by tv cameras posted upon every street corner like you have in UK. I don't know what crime it stops, to me it's an invasion of my privacy in the same manner of some creep looking through peep holes in bathroom doors at ppl. As for neighbors spying on neighbors and turning them into the authorities for whatever?????...didn't we have that in Nazi Germany (Ann Franke springs to mind) and in Soviet Union? Neither way is the route to take to solve any problem.
@ Ian: Your right on in your assessments.
andymacken, don't give it if you can't take it, and as usual the criticism from people like you is easy to do, but as usual no ideas coming back, I walk the walk, you talk the talk. People want action, not cliche.
By the way I work voluntary as an advocate to people in our community that face people like you and don't get anywhere, I handle things my way and things get done, so I will ignore the pretentiousness of your views and as I always have "I do it my way"
By the way I work voluntary as an advocate to people in our community that face people like you and don't get anywhere, I handle things my way and things get done, so I will ignore the pretentiousness of your views and as I always have "I do it my way"
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Thrash Harry
- Utterly Bastard Filthy
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- Joined: 13 May 2003, 20:56
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Well I've just played Sanctuary AS LOUD AS MY SPEAKERS WILL TAKE IT and Junior told me to turn it down or we'd have the chairman from the Resident's Association round. Mrs T would get shunned by her crochet class and my dahlias wouldn't stand a chance at this year's flower show. So I'm off to play the Stone Roses' first album in glorious surround sound @ 11.
Now fnck off and take your kiddy front door pissings somewhere else.
Now fnck off and take your kiddy front door pissings somewhere else.
Go to sleep now, Francis.
"fishes at the bottom of the sea" or "men with bulging pockets" 
I think the essential point is this:
You asked people to read your petition & sign it. Given that most people who use this forum pride themselves on their ability to make their own minds up, the response you've got is one of people reading the petition, thinking about the ideas expressed, signing or not signing, & in some cases doing you the courtesy of explaining their reasoning, in a spirit of thoughtful debate.
Personally, I'm impressed by Ian, Andymackem, Mrs Snowey et al for taking the trouble...I just read your petition, thought 'not bloody likely' & then went about my business in a somewhat less praiseworthy spirit of 'life's too short to argue with the terminally blinkered'.
Perhaps you should think about the manner in which you've expressed your responses. Possibly you're a very good 'advocate', but you couldn't talk me out of a burning car on your current showing.
Now *do* have a nice weekend, & try to do something about that over active knee jerk you have there.
You asked people to read your petition & sign it. Given that most people who use this forum pride themselves on their ability to make their own minds up, the response you've got is one of people reading the petition, thinking about the ideas expressed, signing or not signing, & in some cases doing you the courtesy of explaining their reasoning, in a spirit of thoughtful debate.
Personally, I'm impressed by Ian, Andymackem, Mrs Snowey et al for taking the trouble...I just read your petition, thought 'not bloody likely' & then went about my business in a somewhat less praiseworthy spirit of 'life's too short to argue with the terminally blinkered'.
Perhaps you should think about the manner in which you've expressed your responses. Possibly you're a very good 'advocate', but you couldn't talk me out of a burning car on your current showing.
Now *do* have a nice weekend, & try to do something about that over active knee jerk you have there.
Queen of the mean!
I *do* beg your pardon, I thought it was sufficiently clear.
My essential point was that you were being unnecessarily rude to people who'd taken time to engage you in debate, thereby undermining the credibility, such as it was, of your original post.
Does that help?
My essential point was that you were being unnecessarily rude to people who'd taken time to engage you in debate, thereby undermining the credibility, such as it was, of your original post.
Does that help?
Queen of the mean!
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Thrash Harry
- Utterly Bastard Filthy
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: 13 May 2003, 20:56
- Location: Over The Hill And Far Away
- Contact:
On the other hand, I'll send my Corsa Kid son of a Mrs T round to show you what the sharp side of reality looks like.
Go to sleep now, Francis.
Carrie, I give back as good as I get, the proposals on the petition in my view, and of the 102 people who have so far signed it, is okay.
But you seem to think as do your heroes; that you and them can belittle me in a patronising way and have no response back, sorry no way, do you think that I would waste my time on something I didn't believe in, after all I have met all scums of this earth, that includes local authorities and law enforcement agencies and I have met all decent law abiding people, so do you think I would seriously be worried about my tone of expression when I have resolved many issues that your so called experts get payed to resolve.
Finally, why do you put two stars above your do's?
But you seem to think as do your heroes; that you and them can belittle me in a patronising way and have no response back, sorry no way, do you think that I would waste my time on something I didn't believe in, after all I have met all scums of this earth, that includes local authorities and law enforcement agencies and I have met all decent law abiding people, so do you think I would seriously be worried about my tone of expression when I have resolved many issues that your so called experts get payed to resolve.
Finally, why do you put two stars above your do's?