Heartland

@ff...my sympathies for what your family had to endure. Nobody should have to go through that. Deepest respect for your uncle who chose to fight back and try to change things. Hopefully, times have changed and life is better for you now.

@MB...you are so right! I often wonder how countries that have people dying everyday from starvation and lack of basic necessities can afford weapons and be fighting wars. Wouldn't that money be better spent on taking care of the innocent children and citizens?

If anyone is interested, there is an old novel called Captains and the Kings that presents an interesting view on how political leaders are chosen and wars begun. It is a work of "fiction" but has alot of scary truths in it.

One important thing to remember, imo, is to never judge a country's citizens by their government.

@Markfiend....excellent!

markfiend wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote: Reading history books, it should be a Law that every earthling should read one thoroughly for at least four hours a week.

George Santayana wrote: Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you from ff ?

Lithuania, Andrius Sytas is from Lithuania too

@ff: My parents stem from eastern Berlin. My father was seperated from his mother at the age of fourteen for joining a small celebration for the first tolling of Berlin´s Liberty Bell. He had to run to West Berlin with nothing but the clothes he wore. Both his brothers later tried to escape the GDR through a tunnel, got caught and received a few years of socialistically friendly hosting at the Stasi prison of Halle, which is infamous for its comfort.
There are people who understand such sentiments you express.

Sadly there´s witness´ evidence for the claims of ethnical cleansing against Ossetians probably being true, at least there seem to have been occasional war crimes against harmless civilians. So the Georgians, that according to today´s news, our German Titty Twitster wants to have in the NATO may be guilty as claimed by the Putin Puppet Show.
And funny you quoted that report on Stalin: As I learnt today Gori is Stalin´s hometown. Too good to leave it to the Georgians, huh? And Saakashwili, who seems to be the human equivalent to Dumbo, delivers an excuse for the Russians to take it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/ap_ ... gia_russia

I swear the animals on his ranch could do a better job!!

nodubmanshouts wrote:

Besides which, we're supposed to be talking about a spot of bother in the Caucuses, not rehashing figures about Iraq. Wink

Then you wouldn't mind if I have the last word then, will ya?

* I saw that Global Seurity sight before; their numbers don't add up. Read their articles again...

Considering the sources that Global Security uses to get their numbers, then The US State Department, CENTCOM, MNF-I (MMulti-National Forces-Iraq, for anyone not familiar with that acronym) and the US embassies of the respective countries involved are not giving out the true figures. What are your sources and are they better than direct from the horse's mouth? I somewhat doubt it.

* Japan, Italy, UK, US (half the G8 ) publicly supported the coalition, whether they contributed troops or not (which its probably not worth going into debate on, since this is not the issue here - the question is whether the US is a rogue state against 'everyone else').

The Bush Administration is doing the same as every other US administration has since the end of WW2, just with far less subtlety and the same as any of the major superpowers throughout history.

This might be splitting hairs somewhat, but a government can say pretty much anything it wants, the vast majority of those governed, didn't support the invasion of Iraq.

There you may have a point... but it may support me too. Did every Saudi Arabian citizen oppose the war? Did every US citizen support it? We'll probably never know the true numbers.

We're in agreement on that point, I just thought it worth expanding upon.

And when you take in biased media reporting, one has to wonder how much of somebody's opinion is shaped by bending of truths anyway... and that applies to all sides.

Agreed.

msm67 wrote:@Syberberg....thank you, though I'm still a bit confused I always thought "ceasefire" meant "put your guns away and make nice". Perhaps it is different in French? If they put forth the terms, what did they tell the Russians it meant....keep doing whatever you want and it'll be okay?

Until the relevant documents are signed by the relevant Heads of State, the ceasefire doesn't take effect. As Russia was reacting to Georgian aggression, Saakashvili had to sign on the dotted line first, once both sides had agreed to the terms of the ceasefire as presented by a neutral third party (in this case Sarkozy).

Sarkozy's first stop was in Tbilisi, to get Saakashvili's agreement, once that was sorted out he went off to Moscow to chat with Medvedev. Once Putin had agreed, it was back to Tbilisi to get Saakashvili's signature, then back to Moscow to get Medvedev's (who presumably asked to borrow Putin's fountain pen).

I used to analyze this stuff for a living not too long ago, and yes, it can be very confusing indeed.

Somehow I get the bad feeling that this is going to go on for a while longer.

If you mean the problem with Russian separatists in both Georgia and The Ukraine, it's been on-going since in the fall of the USSR, and will continue until someone "wins" The Great Game, i.e. complete control of the world's energy deposits and, therefore, complete economic control of the planet. The traditional "agreement" was that The West had the Persian Gulf oil/natural gas deposits and The East had the Caspian Basin. The next major flash point will be the Arctic deposits, between Canada, Norway/EU, Russia and the USA/UK. Meanwhile, African and South American energy and mineral resources are being bought up lock, stock and barrel by China (except for Nigeria and a few other places). Both China and India are the only major energy users who are building new refineries capable of dealing with heavy sour crude, unlike the US/UK/EU who's main refining capacity is for light sweet.

I just hope that the US stays out of it.

Too late. It's due to recent US meddling that this whole situation finally kicked off.

If anything is to be done, I really believe that it would be the responsibility of the EU, as this is definitely something that affects Europe.

Agreed, the sensible option is for the US promise of NATO membership of both Georgia and The Ukraine to be quietly forgotten, as per the last veto by Germany, Italy and France. They are too inherently unstable due to outstanding and unresolved disputes. Quite frankly, what should've been done in the first place was to hold referendums and redraw the maps as necessary.

I heard Bush condemning Russia for their actions, which smacked of hypocrisy, imho. I just hope he keeps out of this, for everyone's sake!

It's utter hypocrisy indeed (particularly when compared to Israeli over-reaction against The Lebanon in 2006), but that's the nature of The Game, as Putin recently pointed out (although he termed it as "cynicism", as it's a slightly more polite way of saying it).

eotunun wrote: <snip>So the Georgians, that according to today´s news, our German Titty Twitster wants to see have in the NATO<snip>

She's said what?!?!?! At the last NATO Conference, she vetoed it (along with France and Italy, Italy just having signed an energy supply contract with Russia. Go figure) and has just signed a deal with Putin for a pipeline across the Baltic (bypassing Poland, Latvia, et al) to supply Germany with Russian natural gas. What the hell does she think she's playing at?

Don't suppose you've got a link to any reports have you? EDIT: Don't worry, found stuff. This is starting to get silly and push things a tad too far, too fast.

I give this 6 years on the outset before things turn really nasty.
Expect Russia to start pushing for full membership of the SCO (Shanghai Co-Operation Organisation, for those not familiar with the acronym) for Iran and India, particularly Iran, if this proposal goes ahead. You can also (probably) kiss goodbye to any UN Security Council sanctions against Iran as well.

@Syberberg...thank you for explanation of how the ceasefire works. As for the US, although I have always lived here, it doesn't mean I agree with how the government operates. Their habit of jumping on every other country for their actions, while ignoring Israel's and their own, is quite annoying. One thing that bothers me is that so many people are anti-American because of the government. The citizens here wind up paying the price and a good portion do not support this administration. The last thing this country needs is to get dragged into another conflict that we should stay out of. Guess all anyone can hope for is that cooler heads prevail and this situation gets resolved quickly and peacefully. Then perhaps the French or somebody can try to end the Iraq one!

markfiend wrote:Debs:

"I'm gonna share with you a vision that I had, cause I love you. And you feel it. You know all that money we spend on nuclear weapons and defense each year, trillions of dollars, correct? Instead -- just play with this -- if we spent that money feeding and clothing the poor of the world -- and it would pay for it many times over, not one human being excluded -- we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever in peace. Thank you very much. You've been great, I hope you enjoyed it."

-Bill Hicks-

So do you want to explore inner and outer space with me then?

MadameButterfly wrote: So do you want to explore inner and outer space with me then?

i don't drink so much and drugs "are bad", sorry

Syberberg wrote:

eotunun wrote: <snip>So the Georgians, that according to today´s news, our German Titty Twitster wants to see have in the NATO<snip>

She's said what?!?!?! At the last NATO Conference, she vetoed it (along with France and Italy, Italy just having signed an energy supply contract with Russia. Go figure) and has just signed a deal with Putin for a pipeline across the Baltic (bypassing Poland, Latvia, et al) to supply Germany with Russian natural gas. What the hell does she think she's playing at?

Don't suppose you've got a link to any reports have you? EDIT: Don't worry, found stuff. This is starting to get silly and push things a tad too far, too fast.

Our Titty Twitster does seem rather inane to many out here. So we, at least me, are/is not surprised. The only links I'd have had to offer were in Krautsch. btw.
As ol'Angie has a part time job in the board of RWE, the biggest german provider of gas and electricity, one may think that she's concerned about that tube that goes through Georgia and tries to force away the company of her predecessor's buisness pal Wladi. After a closer look I found that former chancelor Schröder is not employed with Gazprom, but a switzerian company that owns and operates the north sea gas pipeline that transports Gazprom's combustibles to Western Europe.
Do try not to think of corruption when your next gas bill looks like the result of a first class dinner for you and your friends and family. That's where the money is today, and that's what the Georgian and Russian soldiers killed and died for.

On a side note ...

Should be interesting to see hows the plays out on the ISS. As once the US mothballs the shuttle there is no way up there for awhile without Russia's rockets.

spot778 wrote:On a side note ...

Should be interesting to see hows the plays out on the ISS. As once the US mothballs the shuttle there is no way up there for awhile without Russia's rockets.

Announcement that the shuttle is going to run 3 extra missions in 5... 4... 3...



I could start a derail on how the Shuttle was obsolete before it was even in active service but I don't think I'd be thanked

spot778 wrote:On a side note ...

Should be interesting to see hows the plays out on the ISS. As once the US mothballs the shuttle there is no way up there for awhile without Russia's rockets.

Now that's an interesting point. AFAIK, the European rockets can send supplies, but not people. <shrug> They could always ask the Chinese for some help I suppose.

[tin foil hat on] Of course, there could always be a nasty "accident" with a Russian re-supply/manned rocket "hitting" the ISS and blowing the whole thing up.[tin foil hat off]

Feel free to use the above paragraph on the conspiracy site/forum of your choice. Should be amusing to watch what happens.

"I was not here. I did not say this." - Guild Navigator, Dune, Frank Herbert.

Syberberg wrote:

spot778 wrote:On a side note ...

Should be interesting to see hows the plays out on the ISS. As once the US mothballs the shuttle there is no way up there for awhile without Russia's rockets.

Now that's an interesting point. AFAIK, the European rockets can send supplies, but not people. <shrug> They could always ask the Chinese for some help I suppose.

[tin foil hat on] Of course, there could always be a nasty "accident" with a Russian re-supply/manned rocket "hitting" the ISS and blowing the whole thing up.[tin foil hat off]

Feel free to use the above paragraph on the conspiracy site/forum of your choice. Should be amusing to watch what happens.

"I was not here. I did not say this." - Guild Navigator, Dune, Frank Herbert.

I think every war bad thing. Death of people is very bad thing. But Im sorry, it is my opinion North Irelend should go to Irelend, Scottland should be free from UK, Kurdistann should be have inependant, Isckeria, Prussia (Kaliningrad/Prussia) should be now going to Germany (Potssdamskoje soglashenije)) too. There ar a lot examples..... OK. We now speaking about who is wrong who and isnt wrong. If Homo sapiens is the same as other animals , why we should be nervous?))) It should be normal. (TAKE LOOK IN DARWIN BOOK)
MY ANSWER THERE WILL BE NO PIECE IN THE WORLD FOREWER. WE CAN MAKE A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS BUT ALL US WILL DIED WITH GUNS IN THE HANDS OR IN ANOTHER PLACE.


I STILL LIVING IN THE FILMS OF DDR

ff wrote:
Lithuania, Andrius Sytas is from Lithuania too

Small world--so is my wife (Vilnius, to be exact). Labas, ff.

Mark--PM incoming. I have been swamped.

We are all finally beginning to see the start of the soon to be escalating energy wars. They will be fought strategically, economically and militarily. Unfortunately Supply will become more and more tight in relation to demand. We can all thank Standard Oil, Henry Ford and the average human everywhere that falls in love with the thought of transportation that didn't involve horse and buggy. Peak oil is real, the head of Mexico's oil company publicly stated last Saturday that it's largest field Cantarell has peaked and they have no chance of finding another like it. Russian oil is in decline.many argue that OPEC has been cooking the books for years and that even the Saudis are peaking or that affordable production has peaked already (see "Twilight in The Desert" by Matthew Simmons, President of Simmons & Company International, Energy Investment firm dealing with the likes of Halliburton).

Russia wants control of Baku oil. Period. That's what Georgia is all about.

The so-called global economy is predicated on Petroleum products:

Transportation/shipping
Pharmacuticals
Pesticides/fertilizers
Plastics

Therefore food production, industrialized manufacturing (including the production of more Oil producing infrastructure like offshore rigs and horizontal drilling equipment, solar panels, wind turbines, etc.).

The first signs are in the housing markets here in the US.

We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg with Russia and Georgia.

I know that many are hostile towards the USA around the world. I know there are forces at work to bring American to it's financial knees.

Obviously the hawks in Washington know all of this as well. A nation in tremendous debt to other contries, with a ridiculous thirst for fossil fuels would naturally continue to build it's military into a gigantic monstrosity out of fear.

Fear of the debt collectors! Europe has seen this many times. What did Germany do about it's debt after WWI? Well I think we all know the answer to that.

As an American I don't want to see that happen but I think it will.

But it's obvious that there are only two regions that would benefit from the US and China (plus Japan) being so economically linked and then mutually destroying one another in a war over oil and fossil fuels. Those regions are the FSU and the EU.

It seems apparent that many Europeans would merely sit back and watch.

Many Russians would sit back and smile.

Interesting that maybe someone has decided that the time has come to pull the plug on this little experiment called America.

and very arrogant.

I will refuse to pick sides, will all of you?

The thing that annoys me about using oil for fuel is that it's so fecking short-sighted. Solar energy is pouring on us.

Wikipedia wrote:The amount of solar energy reaching the surface of the planet is so vast that in one year it is about twice as much as will ever be obtained from the all of earth's non-renewable resources of coal, oil, natural gas, and mined uranium combined.

If we could utilise just a fraction of that energy, problem solved.

As Robert Heinlein said, it's raining soup, why didn't we bring a bowl?

Peak oil, a few useful links for the concerned (which you should be):

http://www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk/ Superb site for the beginner, has a wonderful jargon buster.

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/ UK based peak oil site, much less "Doomerish" than others. Great, knowledgeable and useful forum. Tell 'em I sent ya.

http://www.theoildrum.com/ Rather more technical in nature, but accurate. Peak oil's equivalent to Real Climate.

@Prescott and mark: Get's to something when even CERA announce that we've reached "plateau oil." The first move in the resource war was Iraq, lots (estimated 210 billion barrels) of light sweet crude and with reserve growth, that could possibly rise to 310 billion barrels.

sultan2075 wrote:

ff wrote:
Lithuania, Andrius Sytas is from Lithuania too

Small world--so is my wife (Vilnius, to be exact). Labas, ff.

My biological father (my mom's first hubby) was born in Latvia; I have relatives in Riga, or thereabouts, who I'll probably never meet.
Just thought I'd share...