London's Burning

[MadameButterfly]

Well that attitude isn't going to help them is it? It's also not going to help society when They need it most. I thought there was a certain honour to be one. But if they are fearing. Or because of cuts staying in the backround.... If they can't handle it who can? As a citizen of your country aren't you allowed to feel safe? Or do you need to protect? Oh well thanks to all the footage on the net at least you can see who the hooligans are...

[lazarus corporation]

I wasn't excusing the police's lack of action any more than I was excusing the looters' looting - in both cases just pointing out underlying factors that can help to explain the observed behaviours.

[Being645]

here's your lovely "protesters"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsS8kTQkjfE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmW2BFfQXh0

c*nts.

really, there is absolutely no police in sight ... probably they are all in London. I think, it was quite clear that this would happen ...

AND there is hardly any black person among these youngsters !!!

To me this looks like a kick straight into the face of capitalism - not into the faces of those these kids do damage in effect ...
They obviously don't think of the people behind. It's like yeah, we're young, we're fed up and we're doing that now ... such as other generations gathered in parks to smoke some weed ... sedation doesn't seem to work any longer, oh yes, and it's also forbidden, anyway ...

*sorry to everybody who might think I'm taking this not serious ... I do, but i just can neither be all that outraged nor do I think it's so very astonishing. It is clear, they have to stop this, because it's not fair and even more because they won't get anywhere, to the contrary and as always maybe ... and all of that to encounter a few minutes within a supposedly "free" environment ... sorry for all those kids as much as for those who have to bear the cost now ...

Basically, keeping to moral standards is a matter of personal maturity and social pressure (i.e. threatening punishment) - on the other hand if double standards get the upper hand within a society people adapt to what they encounter ... sometimes reacting with the same degree of crazy violation they feel they are fed with ... I can't see why almost everybody tends to deny this logical effect while at the same time states are constantly building up measures and mechanisms to control and regulate their populations ... in this very moment, all of a sudden, they seem to know exactly what they are doing and where it will lead to ... but as long as death and punishment rule the world, they can easily go on ...

phh, after all and to summarize these thoughts I'd like to say:

Look this is anonther appeal to our societies to come of age instead of keeping to corruption, tactical manoeuvrings and wargames ... but hell, who would think of that ... perspectiveless, law regulated poverty is such a far parade ... and hopefully one doesn't dirty one's shoes ...

[lazarus corporation]

Alex Thomson of Channel Four News has tweeted that hundreds of riot police were confronting about 200 EDL supporters in Eltham earlier this evening, with at least one arrest being made. Reports of EDL supporters throwing bottles at riot cops.

The EDL mob have now been moved on by the police (after some arrests, it seems - not confirmed), but expect more of them in the near future, as they whip up reactionary fervour and high emotions, both in the streets and online.

[LouLou]

... & again i ask where are the police? there doesn't seem to be any serious action to stop the mobs!

My guess is that they don't fancy putting themselves at risk of injury (or worse) when the government is in the middle of planning to drastically cut police budgets and enforce large numbers of redundancies.

The promise of redundancies in the near future rarely raises morale amongst staff, and tends not to push staff to go the extra mile (especially when the "extra mile" could easily result in hospitalisation).

i can't argue with that.

but could another possible reason be that any police action against these 'protesters' and 'anti-capitalism vigilantes' (or whichever glorifying title certain segments of the press have managed to s**t out in the last 24 hours) carries the risk of being twisted into a bad-cop-beating-up-innocent-kid story?

[Debaser]

carries the risk of being twisted into a bad-cop-beating-up-innocent-kid story?

If you want to be innocent don't be there, don't cover up your face. Naturally I don't believe that anyone should be forced to stay in their homes and should be free to be where they want to be. But who would want to be out when there's a threat like this?

I have to admit a fifty+ year old teacher who works at our school was in London when the, the erm, oh those anti-whatsit G8 perhaps shenanigens kicked off a few months ago. She thought naturally if she got to Fortnum and Mason's she'd be ok

[lazarus corporation]

... & again i ask where are the police? there doesn't seem to be any serious action to stop the mobs!

My guess is that they don't fancy putting themselves at risk of injury (or worse) when the government is in the middle of planning to drastically cut police budgets and enforce large numbers of redundancies.

The promise of redundancies in the near future rarely raises morale amongst staff, and tends not to push staff to go the extra mile (especially when the "extra mile" could easily result in hospitalisation).

i can't argue with that.

but could another possible reason be that any police action against these 'protesters' and 'anti-capitalism vigilantes' (or whichever glorifying title certain segments of the press have managed to s**t out in the last 24 hours) carries the risk of being twisted into a bad-cop-beating-up-innocent-kid story?

It's certainly possible - the Met have certainly got a reputation for beating up innocent people (whether it's that cop who attacked the woman last year with his truncheon because he decided her carton of fruit juice was an offensive weapon, the newspaper seller/passer-by who was pushed to the floor by the police and later died, or any number of other incidents).

To be honest I don't think I've seen the rioters referred to anywhere in the press as 'protesters' or 'anti-capitalism vigilantes'. I think the term 'protesters' was used on the very first night (when there was an actual protest that happened before the rioting started), but I haven't seen that term used by the press in the past 72 hours. (Obviously I may be wrong - I don't read every newspaper).

[stufarq]

C4 interviewed a looter who'd been charged after being found with two stolen Burberry shirts in his bag. he said he regretted it and gave his reasons as the shooting, protesting against the police etc. He wanted to protest so he went out and stole two shirts. Do me a favour.

[Sita]

I don't have any sympathy for looters, but I find the police a bit creepy, too. I was visiting London in 2005 just when they shot this innocent man on his way to the subway. My London friend with whom I was staying is a good Yorkshireman of Pakistani parents, and it was a pretty disturbing feeling that just around the corner someone was shot because he had the same complexion and looks like my mate.

[Being645]

They are products or just youngsters, but surely no "regular" protesters ... but that doesn't say they don't feel like protesters ...

After four days one can also expect motives and motivations having somewhat shifted ...

Perhaps, an open appeal towards them to just stop could bring more of a result than a police who is not present, anyway ...

But of course, it is already decided: the hate of the righteous society will sue them with utmost force ... utilizing (as every so often) the upright neighbourhood ...

puh, why can't I perceive things differently ... sorry for any inconveniences to those concerned ...

[moses]

it's not reluctance to use them, it's just that we don't have any at the moment - all our water cannons are still over there

And not forgetting the hosepipe ban

[stufarq]

Can't think of anything that New Zealand has that could kill you.

The volcano? Death By Chocolate?

My friends who relocated to England live on the countryside, and don't even lock their doors.

Have they relocated to England in the 1950s?

[lazarus corporation]

it's not reluctance to use them, it's just that we don't have any at the moment - all our water cannons are still over there

And not forgetting the hosepipe ban

[Sita]

No, in the 90s, and they studied in London first, then got jobs in Nottingham - and I can testify the neighbourhood there was quite unpleasant, someone even broke in - and now this year they moved to some village in Lincolnshire.

[LouLou]

@lazcorp - you're right. noone with more than one brain cell describes them that way. i was referring to several misquote-random-postmodern-thinker pieces i came across several times in the last few days. nothing worth being taken seriously but they managed to annoy me nevertheless.

i think it's time i start lurking in more savoury parts of teh interwebs

[bearskin]

and now this year they moved to some village in Lincolnshire.

Nice. I can confirm that qualifies as a quiet wee backwater... spend a couple of weeks back in the UK in Feb in such a place, visiting ill parent. Not much rioting going on there (or Numpnett Thrubwell) that I've heard of.

Can't think of anything that New Zealand has that could kill you.

The volcano? Death By Chocolate?

Which volcano? Auckland is built on 50 of them. NZ has no dangerous animals - it also has no hamsters. It does have a few nasty little bike gangs - and it does have crime.. just not chavs who will destroy everything to get their hands on new trainers.

[Debaser]

and now this year they moved to some village in Lincolnshire.

Nice. I can confirm that qualifies as a quiet wee backwater...

Oi! That's my home that is! Backwater indeed, I'll have you know we were very big in Roman times

[Garbageman]

Send in the Sweeney!!

[Dan]

sorry for the intrusion but about what mh says & does laz... what? why? they obviously lack the morals we seem to live by given down by our parents. like i try to give my children...

Many of them come from single parent families (not that there's anything wrong with that if the parent is a good parent) but with that one parent at work (or not giving a crap about the kid, or both) they don't spend as much time with their kids as they should, or their parent(s) don't give a sh!t and don't bother to teach their kids anything. And with a single parent family it's more likely to be the father who's absent, so the child has no father figure in it's life, and no discipline. Then when the child is old enough he/she starts school unable to read or write so they're disadvantaged from the outset, and with corporal punishment banned in schools (since sometime in the mid 80's?) there's no discipline at school either, so when they leave school at 16 they're sent out into the world damaged.

So how do we fix things? Maybe a bloody good shoeing to start with, but where do we go from there?

[sultan2075]

sorry for the intrusion but about what mh says & does laz... what? why? they obviously lack the morals we seem to live by given down by our parents. like i try to give my children...

Many of them come from single parent families (not that there's anything wrong with that if the parent is a good parent) but with that one parent at work (or not giving a crap about the kid, or both) they don't spend as much time with their kids as they should, or their parent(s) don't give a sh!t and don't bother to teach their kids anything. And with a single parent family it's more likely to be the father who's absent, so the child has no father figure in it's life, and no discipline. Then when the child is old enough he/she starts school unable to read or write so they're disadvantaged from the outset, and with corporal punishment banned in schools (since sometime in the mid 80's?) there's no discipline at school either, so when they leave school at 16 they're sent out into the world damaged.

So how do we fix things? Maybe a bloody good shoeing to start with, but where do we go from there?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Single-parent families are--not always, but frequently--a problem for the children, and therefore for societies. In the US, there is a statistical correspondence between single-parent families and crime rates in a community. The more of one, the more of the other--see D.A. Smith and G.R. Jarjoura, "Social Structure and Criminal Victimization," Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency 25. 1988. In a 1990 study by the Progressive Policy Institute (a left-wing American think tank) published a study suggesting that family structure is a much better indicator of future criminal behavior than economic class or racial demography (William Galston, Putting Children First).

And, since "data" is the plural of "anecdote," I will mention that my own experience growing up in the US has generally confirmed the findings of these studies, as have conversations with my students who come from single-parent homes in the worst part of the city. The link seems to be there. I'd be curious to know if that's the case in these neighborhoods as well.

I'd also add that Aristotle suggests if you have bad families, you'll have bad citizens. So this isn't exactly a new idea--but today, we need to see it proved via social science methodology.

So how do you address the moral problem? You have to rebuild the family. How do you do that?

[Sita]

Can you do that at all? There have been so many social experiments in the past, all across the globe, and did any of them succeed? I'm afraid (and sometimes glad - depends) the influence of a government on the people is quite limited.

[bearskin]

Oi! That's my home that is! Backwater indeed, I'll have you know we were very big in Roman times

Mate, I grew up in Lea, just outside Gainsborough. The only thing I remember Gainsborough was ever big on - was skinheads... (well, in the 80s anyhow)

Villages between there and Lincoln are almost all sweet as (with the exception of Saxilby, obviously)

[sultan2075]

Can you do that at all? There have been so many social experiments in the past, all across the globe, and did any of them succeed? I'm afraid (and sometimes glad - depends) the influence of a government on the people is quite limited.

It is limited, which is (almost always) a good thing.

While I don't think that you can force the rebuilding of the family, I don't know that it needs to be forced, either. It's based on what Hobbes called "natural lust" and what Aristotle recognized as a fundamental natural pairing (male and female for procreation). It arguably goes off the rails with Rousseau (see the account of sexuality in the Discourse on the Origins of Inequality, for example). Nonetheless, it is rooted in biological nature. It might be sufficient simply not to undermine it. Then it might take care of itself, i.e., nature might reassert itself.

I think there are a lot of social forces today that undermine the ability or desire of parents to stay together (married or cohabiting) for the sake of the children. Some of these have already been touched on in this thread. Some of those factors are rooted in welfare state policy. In parts of the US, for example, a single unemployed mother can get more money in government aid then a family living in poverty with one employed parent can get through the wages of the employed parent, thus providing an incentive for (as an example) fathers who love their children to actually abandon them, because they will be financially better off without a two-parent household.

The compassionate desire to help those less fortunate is admirable. But one has to be careful about how that is done, and what sort of moral effect certain policies have. Poorly-thought-out programs of compassion might do more harm than good in the long-term, if they undermine the very character traits that are required if one is to overcome the circumstances that require public aid in the first place. Continually expanding the welfare state in the name of compassion may be part of the problem rather than the solution.

[Debaser]

Oi! That's my home that is! Backwater indeed, I'll have you know we were very big in Roman times

Mate, I grew up in Lea, just outside Gainsborough. The only thing I remember Gainsborough was ever big on - was skinheads... (well, in the 80s anyhow)

Villages between there and Lincoln are almost all sweet as (with the exception of Saxilby, obviously)

OOOh Lea - yer a posh git then As for Saxilby, I have friends there - I couldn't possibly comment

[DeWinter]

My friends who relocated to England live on the countryside, and don't even lock their doors.

Have they relocated to England in the 1950s?

Where I live is the same, as it happens. Small rural town and people don't lock their doors. Everyone knows everyone and there are miles of farmland surrounding the town, so any strange people or cars would be noticed. I think only having eight shops and one cashpoint for the whole town is a fair exchange for feeling safe when you go for a stroll.