Heartland

eotunun wrote:Spot what's odd: Jo Cox murdered, Farage and BoJo allive and kicking.

That's an extremely distasteful thing to say.

stufarq wrote:

eotunun wrote:Spot what's odd: Jo Cox murdered, Farage and BoJo allive and kicking.

That's an extremely distasteful thing to say.

It is indeed.

stufarq wrote:

markfiend wrote: Cameron is now definitely #WorseThanThatcher - he gambled the whole country on this referendum, and lost.

That's pretty unfair. He held a referendum he didn't really want in order to allow the people to make a democratic vote. I'm no supporter of Cameron, but he's done that rare thing of a government following the will of the people instead of telling them what to do. And you can hardly blame him for the way they voted.

I disagree. There was no real clamour for a referendum from the public, only from the Eurosceptic wing of the Tories and from the Kippers. Cameron tossed them the referendum as a sop to avoid the Kippers splitting the Tory vote. It was cavalier of him to call the referendum with no real strategy of how to win the damn thing.

Actually I'll go further: This will be remembered in the history books as the beginning of the slide to the next war in Europe.

markfiend wrote:

stufarq wrote:

markfiend wrote: Cameron is now definitely #WorseThanThatcher - he gambled the whole country on this referendum, and lost.

That's pretty unfair. He held a referendum he didn't really want in order to allow the people to make a democratic vote. I'm no supporter of Cameron, but he's done that rare thing of a government following the will of the people instead of telling them what to do. And you can hardly blame him for the way they voted.

I disagree. There was no real clamour for a referendum from the public, only from the Eurosceptic wing of the Tories and from the Kippers. Cameron tossed them the referendum as a sop to avoid the Kippers splitting the Tory vote. It was cavalier of him to call the referendum with no real strategy of how to win the damn thing.

Dead right. The future for the young people of this country f**ked because Cameron wanted to retain the Eurosceptics in his party. Wanker

Can somebody educate me? Those who are using the immigration card for voting leave...I'm led to believe we already selectively opt-out of the immigration laws when it suits us...so what difference does it make leaving?
This is not a loaded question - just can't understand the logic?

stufarq wrote:

Alex66 wrote:

iesus wrote:Calm brothers and sisters. It can't be such a disaster, there must be something come out of it that is good

Looks like Ill be going home so to speak; http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... is-certain

Don't be so sure. Since the indy referendum, support for the SNP has fallen, and the Scottish Remain vote wasn't so overwhelming as to ensure an independence vote. And the UK leaving the EU changes things for an independence campaign. The SNP has always insisted (in a promise it never had any right or power to make) that the border with England would remain open; now, there'd almost certainly have to be a border, and that's definite if an independent Scotland joined the EU. Also, joining would require Scotland to adopt the Euro - something the Scottish people are very resistant to, and the SNP doesn't want. If there is another referendum, it'd be on very different terms, but that means Sturgeon may not be as keen as she's having to make out.

stufarq That's interesting, do you have sources for your information?

Breaking: EU Presidents meet to agree Brexit process that "guarantees the door hits Britain's arse on the way out".

Hom_Corleone wrote:Can somebody educate me? Those who are using the immigration card for voting leave...I'm led to believe we already selectively opt-out of the immigration laws when it suits us...so what difference does it make leaving?
This is not a loaded question - just can't understand the logic?

The EU rules that anyone from the Eurozone can travel & settle freely regardless of skill set or language skills, As European citizens, they have the right to do so.
The anti-immigration people played on that as these EU citizens undercut the native workforce & negatively impacted the wages of the British workforce.
Thing is. Nothing was stopping the British workforce from going anywhere in Europe to do the same. I did.
I believe that the immigration argument was clouded by the refugee influx & a lot of people put them all under the same umbrella.

markfiend wrote:

stufarq wrote:

markfiend wrote: Cameron is now definitely #WorseThanThatcher - he gambled the whole country on this referendum, and lost.

That's pretty unfair. He held a referendum he didn't really want in order to allow the people to make a democratic vote. I'm no supporter of Cameron, but he's done that rare thing of a government following the will of the people instead of telling them what to do. And you can hardly blame him for the way they voted.

I disagree. There was no real clamour for a referendum from the public, only from the Eurosceptic wing of the Tories and from the Kippers. Cameron tossed them the referendum as a sop to avoid the Kippers splitting the Tory vote. It was cavalier of him to call the referendum with no real strategy of how to win the damn thing.

There was no clamour for a referendum, but there was growing dissatisfaction with the EU (as the result confirms). But that's not really the point, as it wasn't the Tories who were voting, it was the public. Whatever his personal reasons, Cameron allowed the public to vote. And considering the result, denying them that right would clearly have been undemocratic.

markfiend wrote:Actually I'll go further: This will be remembered in the history books as the beginning of the slide to the next war in Europe.

Now you're just joining the scaremongers.

Interesting how sharply poll results are divided by age group...

Under-40s to declare independence and remain in EU?


Also, I wonder if this will lead to a big surge in migration in the short term as those keen to come to the UK (or get out) do so while they still can.

Pista wrote:...refugee influx...

Hmm. "Refugee."

Jeremiah wrote:
Also, I wonder if this will lead to a big surge in migration in the short term as those keen to come to the UK (or get out) do so while they still can.

That may happen, but once all ties have been cut employers won't touch them with a barge pole due to all the red tape they'd have to go through.
When I moved to Hungary it was before Hungary joined the EU & I had to get all the requisite permissions to work here which then needed to be endorsed by the company I went to work for.
It's a lot of bureaucratic BS to go through for an employer even if they really want that person to work for them.
Then there is residence permission. That's another whole load of forms & medical exams & stuff that need to be repeated periodically.
Once Hungary joined, all that disappeared. I was an EU citizen & all the time wasting cr@p stopped.
Not really sure what I'm going to do now, let alone all the other UK citizens that set off for a new life on the mainland.

Pat wrote:

stufarq wrote:

Alex66 wrote: Looks like Ill be going home so to speak; http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... is-certain

Don't be so sure. Since the indy referendum, support for the SNP has fallen, and the Scottish Remain vote wasn't so overwhelming as to ensure an independence vote. And the UK leaving the EU changes things for an independence campaign. The SNP has always insisted (in a promise it never had any right or power to make) that the border with England would remain open; now, there'd almost certainly have to be a border, and that's definite if an independent Scotland joined the EU. Also, joining would require Scotland to adopt the Euro - something the Scottish people are very resistant to, and the SNP doesn't want. If there is another referendum, it'd be on very different terms, but that means Sturgeon may not be as keen as she's having to make out.

stufarq That's interesting, do you have sources for your information?

SNP no longer has a majority in the Scottish Parliament. If Scotland joined the EU, with its open borders policy, it would have a border with England, a non-EU member, who would want a closed border to prevent EU migrants coming into the UK unchecked. The same will be the case at the Irish border. All new EU members are now required to join the Euro - there's no longer an opt-out. The SNP used to be pro-Euro until the currency crash, since when they've been strongly in favour of keeping the pound. The Scottish remain vote not being enough to swing an independence vote is my opinion.

SINsister wrote:

Pista wrote:...refugee influx...

Hmm. "Refugee."

well, alright then. Asylum seekers

Pista wrote: That may happen, but once all ties have been cut employers won't touch them with a barge pole due to all the red tape they'd have to go through.
When I moved to Hungary it was before Hungary joined the EU & I had to get all the requisite permissions to work here which then needed to be endorsed by the company I went to work for.
It's a lot of bureaucratic BS to go through for an employer even if they really want that person to work for them.
Then there is residence permission. That's another whole load of forms & medical exams & stuff that need to be repeated periodically.
Once Hungary joined, all that disappeared. I was an EU citizen & all the time wasting cr@p stopped.
Not really sure what I'm going to do now, let alone all the other UK citizens that set off for a new life on the mainland.

There are more non-EU migrants working in Britain than EU ones, so presumably there would be just as many employers willing to employ EU workers. On the downside, it'll probably increase the number of foreign residents being sent home for no good reason, even if they've married UK residents, which happens far too often already.

Pista wrote:well, alright then. Asylum seekers

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the semantics...

SINsister wrote:

Pista wrote:well, alright then. Asylum seekers

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the semantics...

Pista wrote:

Hom_Corleone wrote:Can somebody educate me? Those who are using the immigration card for voting leave...I'm led to believe we already selectively opt-out of the immigration laws when it suits us...so what difference does it make leaving?
This is not a loaded question - just can't understand the logic?

The EU rules that anyone from the Eurozone can travel & settle freely regardless of skill set or language skills, As European citizens, they have the right to do so.
The anti-immigration people played on that as these EU citizens undercut the native workforce & negatively impacted the wages of the British workforce.
Thing is. Nothing was stopping the British workforce from going anywhere in Europe to do the same. I did.
I believe that the immigration argument was clouded by the refugee influx & a lot of people put them all under the same umbrella.

can i add that whilst the government were technically tied when it came to EU immigrants there was nothing preventing them doing something about immigrants from outside of the EU, yet they did nothing. the reason? according to Michael Heseltine (not someone i'm used to quoting to back my facts) this was because as a country we produce a great deal of jobs that the british people simply won't do. the whole immigration thing was used to manipulate the emotions of the ignorant and the small-minded to get them to vote. simple as that.

Pista wrote:

SINsister wrote:

Pista wrote:well, alright then. Asylum seekers

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the semantics...

Or as we call them round my way, "people".

Honestly, though - whatever we call them, it bothers me that Leave used them as a stick to beat the EU with. As they weren't coming from EU member states, our membership of the EU had no bearing on the problem.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote: can i add that whilst the government were technically tied when it came to EU immigrants there was nothing preventing them doing something about immigrants from outside of the EU, yet they did nothing. the reason? according to Michael Heseltine (not someone i'm used to quoting to back my facts) this was because as a country we produce a great deal of jobs that the british people simply won't do. the whole immigration thing was used to manipulate the emotions of the ignorant and the small-minded to get them to vote. simple as that.

Totally agree. It was a purely emotional tactic & very misleading.
Listening to the news yesterday, it was stated that the UK population had grown, but by no more than normal. So migration was a total red herring in the whole scheme of things.

markfiend wrote:This will be remembered in the history books as the beginning of the slide to the next war in Europe.

Watch out for the Spanish Armada!

stufarq wrote: Don't be so sure. Since the indy referendum, support for the SNP has fallen, and the Scottish Remain vote wasn't so overwhelming as to ensure an independence vote. And the UK leaving the EU changes things for an independence campaign. The SNP has always insisted (in a promise it never had any right or power to make) that the border with England would remain open; now, there'd almost certainly have to be a border, and that's definite if an independent Scotland joined the EU. Also, joining would require Scotland to adopt the Euro - something the Scottish people are very resistant to, and the SNP doesn't want. If there is another referendum, it'd be on very different terms, but that means Sturgeon may not be as keen as she's having to make out.

pat wrote: stufarq That's interesting, do you have sources for your information?

stufarq wrote: SNP no longer has a majority in the Scottish Parliament. If Scotland joined the EU, with its open borders policy, it would have a border with England, a non-EU member, who would want a closed border to prevent EU migrants coming into the UK unchecked. The same will be the case at the Irish border. All new EU members are now required to join the Euro - there's no longer an opt-out. The SNP used to be pro-Euro until the currency crash, since when they've been strongly in favour of keeping the pound. The Scottish remain vote not being enough to swing an independence vote is my opinion.

SNP + Greens do have an independence seeking majority in the Scottish Parliament. Greens have promised to support Indyref2 in the event of Brexit, even if they abstain this gives a 63 to 59 majority.I think your mistaking Independence support =SNP. link
I believe when you are talking about borders you're talking about English border security, provided by England (to protect their borders from us mad Jocks and our pals ) and N Ireland to protect the rest of the UK from the South. The South has no plans to provide border security/checks and neither does Scotland. There is no requirement in the EU to have border/security checks. (see white paper)
The requirement to join the Euro requires the Country to have a Central Bank (we don't) but as we've been using a foreign currency for years it won't matter either way but will keep London Taxi drivers happy. Any chance of a source or link on this one, I've been googling for a while and still can't find anything but the Central Bank quote, ta.
I agree totally with your opinion of the remain vote vs Indyref2 and also the First Ministers keeness for another Indyref , she's said so often during the Remain campaign. We are where we are.

EvilBastard wrote:Or as we call them round my way, "people".

My perspective's changed on a lot of things over the course of the last year. I've decided that "political correctness" can go fvck itself. Shocking, I'm sure. But there you go. Being only an observer, rather than living in the middle of it, I guess I see the whole thing a bit differently.

EvilBastard wrote:Honestly, though - whatever we call them, it bothers me that Leave used them as a stick to beat the EU with. As they weren't coming from EU member states, our membership of the EU had no bearing on the problem.

I really and truly hope that future events prove you correct, E.B., current sh1tless events aside.

SINsister wrote:

EvilBastard wrote:Or as we call them round my way, "people".

My perspective's changed on a lot of things over the course of the last year. I've decided that "political correctness" can go fvck itself. Shocking, I'm sure. But there you go. Being only an observer, rather than living in the middle of it, I guess I see the whole thing a bit differently.

That's OK, SINnie - we love you just the way you are. And glad to see you back

SINsister wrote:

EvilBastard wrote:Honestly, though - whatever we call them, it bothers me that Leave used them as a stick to beat the EU with. As they weren't coming from EU member states, our membership of the EU had no bearing on the problem.

I really and truly hope that future events prove you correct, E.B., current sh1tless events aside.

You and me both, sibling.