Heartland

rien wrote:I'll have to google Chibnall, but it's really not hard to be less sexist/queerphobic/racist/disrespectful towards fans than Moffat.

You know, I never once took any of that from any episode of Doctor Who ever.
I often see this tide of hate on social media as episodes air & I sit wondering what everyone's on about.
I just see goodies taking on monsters & winning.

rien wrote:I'll have to google Chibnall, but it's really not hard to be less sexist/queerphobic/racist/disrespectful towards fans than Moffat.

I'm not Moffat's biggest fan, but I can't see how you draw that conclusion.

All his female characters are essentially the same one-dimensional character at different stages (the feisty young woman, the feisty mother, the feisty older woman), they all are emotionally dependent on a man (usually the Doctor, who is manipulative and often even abusive towards... well, everyone actually), they are always sexualised (especially when they're queer) or have to endure "jokes" about their appearance.

He's made dismissive comments about both asexuality and bisexuality.

Both the number of female characters and characters of colour dropped when he took over from RTD.

He frequently makes fun of female fans, dismissing their valid criticisms for the things I mentioned and other things...
oh and I just remembered the whole "mystic pregnancy" storyline :barf:
Also queerbaiting, although iirc that's more of a Sherlock issue.

(here's a compilation with more in-depth discussion of grievances--although note that I don't endorse everything in the posts there; something is very nitpicky: http://stfu-moffat.tumblr.com/Moffat)

Nope. Still not seeing any of that anywhere in DW.
The female characters are feisty? So what? I'd take feisty over submissive & timid any day.
I don't see the doctor as manipulative either. He (& let's be fair, he's technically an alien rather than a man) is a time lord. That has to hold some degree of curiosity & irresistibility for anyone.
The only things I recall him ever being abusive to were daleks & perhaps cybermen.
Never saw any queer bashing either & if you're referring to Vastra's relationship to Jenny, well, she's a flipping lizard. That's not an everyday occurrence is it?

Dismissive comments? Where? & let's not forget that "dismissive" isn't necessarily the same as "derogatory".

The drop in the number of female characters & characters of colour is an issue? Really? Where is it written that he needs to have a particular quota of either? Should he write & cast based on those criteria or based on the story he wants to try to tell?

I read that tumblr thing on the making fun stuff. Bit too much "extrapolating" going on there. A heck of a lot of assumptions if you ask me.

Which mystical pregnancy did you mean? Although, in saying that, there was only the one in Amy's Choice where it was quite obvious it was a dream/ nightmare.
The other pregnancy was actually a pregnancy with a kid & everything. Wasn't it? Bizarre? Convoluted? Perhaps. But nothing more really & as for queerbaiting? How is a story about a young couple having a child classified as queerbaiting?

You're welcome to believe what you will. Hey, it's a show about a time travelling alien so I guess it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but IMHO, other than some scripts not being as good as others, the setup's not really changed for over 50 years. Bloke travels through time with a female companion & sometimes joined by a bloke for a while, defeats monsters & saves people/ planets/ creatures etc.

If Moffat's guilty of anything, it's a few weak storylines & not for anything written in that blog.
That all smacks of personal attacks & intolerance & that's the real crime I think.

Pista wrote:Nope. Still not seeing any of that anywhere in DW.

Another thing to keep in mind here is that you by virtue of being a (cis) man haven't suffered a lifetime of "death by a thousand cuts" that would make you sensitive to these things, so one reason you aren't seeing them is because you never needed to.

The female characters are feisty? So what? I'd take feisty over submissive & timid any day.

But they aren't anything else. Rose, Martha, and Donna (sorry, I haven't seen many of the older series) all have distinct human personalities and fleshed-out background including FAMILIES, people who miss them and whom they miss, etc. and these are also the qualities that Nine and Ten love about them: their humanity.

Clara? Comes out of nowhere, changes depending on what the story needs her to be, isn't connected to anyone, and most of all: she's not a person to the Doctor, she's a riddle, a mystery, a puzzle to be solved.

River: Moffat's fetish fantasy: we're constantly told that she's powerful, except we never see her do anything that's not for the Doctor. She's basically the Doctor's groupie.

Etc. Etc.

I don't see the doctor as manipulative either.

"The Doctor lies." Always, always the follow-up to s**t behaviour of his.
There is this moment in the first Twelve episode where he makes Clara believe he's abandoned her to the robot zombie body snatchers or whatever those were, just so she could believe she was about to be brutally mutilated and killed, understandably making her cry... and that's when he came back sauntering in with an offhand comment on tears being "women's weapons" or something inane like that. Real classy.
I also just remembered that mini-episode where Rory couldn't keep it together because Amy was wearing a short skirt and Eleven told him to 'control his wife' instead of the logical "take a cold shower, you are not a dog".

Never saw any queer bashing either & if you're referring to Vastra's relationship to Jenny, well, she's a flipping lizard. That's not an everyday occurrence is it?

It's queerbaiting, and that's mainly in Sherlock where they keep hinting at homo-eroticism but never actually let any queer relationships happen.

And yes, Vastra: the lesbian is literally not human. Same with how he made a HORSE trans (or genderwhatever since the Doctor still called 'Susan' a 'he'). And Vastra and Jenny's relationship, again is this weird, borderline abusive master-servant thing straight (ha) from a straight dude's fap bank. But then he can't really write relationships where two people are on the same level and there isn't a clear Major and Minor, either.

Dismissive comments? Where? & let's not forget that "dismissive" isn't necessarily the same as "derogatory".

Amy is reduced to "Legs". River is reduced to "Mrs Robinson". Clara is "fat" and has "hips like a man". etc. etc. Basically, he's turning the Doctor into his Sherlock.

(oh, this: http://claudiaboleyn.tumblr.com/post/95 ... written-by)

The drop in the number of female characters & characters of colour is an issue? Really? Where is it written that he needs to have a particular quota of either? Should he write & cast based on those criteria or based on the story he wants to try to tell?

Because people who are not white men EXIST. White women exist. People of either gender and of any variety of skin colour exist. We consume media. We are not a quota to be met. WE EXIST. Western media is already overwhelmingly unnaturally skewed towards (white) maleness. RTD was making at least a little progress towards a more accurate depiction of real people... and Moffat undid even that.

I read that tumblr thing on the making fun stuff. Bit too much "extrapolating" going on there. A heck of a lot of assumptions if you ask me.

dunno which bit you were reading.

Which mystical pregnancy did you mean? Although, in saying that, there was only the one in Amy's Choice where it was quite obvious it was a dream/ nightmare.
The other pregnancy was actually a pregnancy with a kid & everything. Wasn't it? Bizarre? Convoluted? Perhaps.

http://whovianfeminism.tumblr.com/post/ ... trope-part

You're welcome to believe what you will. Hey, it's a show about a time travelling alien so I guess it shouldn't be taken so seriously, but IMHO, other than some scripts not being as good as others, the setup's not really changed for over 50 years. Bloke travels through time with a female companion & sometimes joined by a bloke for a while, defeats monsters & saves people/ planets/ creatures etc.

Yes, why should we make a show that is watched by millions of people less perpetuating of harmful stereotypes and laddish bullcrap? Why should media be made to be enjoyed by anyone who's not a cis man? Why should people who have no problems imagining a time-travelling alien be subjected to the mental strain that is imagining proper treatment of women and minorities?

My god, this is elves and dragons all over again. "I can write a world with fire-breathing dragons, but a brown-skinned elf really is too unrealistic".

People watch shows like this and start believing this is how men are supposed to treat women, because it's SO FUNNY to reduce human beings to spunky mysteries in tight skirts, and it doesn't AT ALL contribute to the systemic casual misogyny that ends up literally killing women.

As an ex-theatre director, casting is usually dictated by artistic merit coupled with how well actors/ actresses work together with a view to conveying a story.
Why must a show/ story be potentially compromised as a result of pressure to insist on the inclusion of actors/ actresses who might not be the “right fit� for the tale being told?
If the auditions don’t result in the selection of a diverse cast, I don’t see how the show runner can be held accountable. It’s not his fault is it?
& in any case, DW isn’t based on reality in the same way as, say, a soap opera reflecting real lives in real communities of real people/ characters (albeit fictional)…..if that makes sense.

Twelve was never socially affable resulting in Clara even providing him with a cue card for him to refer to before he put his foot in his mouth. But that’s part of Twelve’s character. He’s basically a grumpy sod with little time for niceties (but rather too much time to bash an electric guitar).

& don’t forget that Silurians always tended to be a bit bossy & even fierce. That would easily explain Vastra’s perceived dominance in her marriage to Jenny. Heck, even her expression has “what the f**k are you looking at?� written all over it. I think the fap bank link is a bit of a stretch to be fair, as well as mildly insulting.

The Doctor makes remarks about just about everyone. I seem to remember Rory getting his fair share of put downs & Mr Pink was continually referred to as “The PE Teacher� wasn’t he?
There was certainly nothing "extreme" & I would hazard a guess that if one could flip a switch & reverse all genders ethnicities etc automatically, whilst using the same scripted remarks, there'd be little or no criticism at all.
Comparisons to Sherlock are pretty redundant too. Sherlock was always an arrogant, know-it-all socially awkward addict. Moffat didn’t do that. That’s how Sherlock Holmes has always been.

& how is “take a cold shower, you’re not a dog� any more acceptable than “control your wife�?
So what? She wears a skirt. Lots of women I know wear skirts.

Don’t get me wrong here. I’m not in any way, shape or form waving a flag for or against any particular persuasion, preference, race. I find intolerance abhorrent.
I can see how various bloggers can interpret Moffat’s intentions, but that’s not to say they are actually right. For the most part, the blogs/ comments I have read all serve to put forward the authors’ own agendas on an almost Daily Mail-esque scale.
I find that quite worrying tbh. Or is that just my interpretation?
Where will it end? Sometimes I am surprised there are no hate blogs directed at whoever it was that designed the little red & green man lights at pedestrian crossings.

& given the scale of the frothing hatred Moffat must see day in day out, it’s no wonder he’s jacked it in.
Maybe I’m wrong. Then again, maybe you’re wrong.
Who is qualified to judge?

Any kind of writing or casting that fails at inclusiveness is unimaginative, lazy, regressive, and therefore boring.

This is not about opinions. This is about facts. Moffat’s writing is sexist. This is a fact. You can’t magically make it go away by not listening to the people who are affected by it.

When the Doctor tells Rory to control his wife instead of his own impulses he perpetuates the toxic idea that women are responsible for the reactions men have towards them and are not free to wear what they want. This is called victim blaming, and part of rape culture.

And if your responses to “there is sexism happening� are denial, and, after being shown evidence of it by someone who has been subjected to it their whole life and is therefore qualified to identify it (and even provides sources by other people who’ve had similar experiences), DEFENDING it, then you are part of the reason why the world is such a s**t place for so many people.

(I’ve also never stated that I support the Doctor’s awful behaviour towards other characters. Like I said, he’s turning into Moffat’s Sherlock, who is a gaslighting dickhead. http://stardust-rain.tumblr.com/post/72 ... elementary)

That you find his writing sexist is not a fact. It is an opinion & one which you happen to share with dozens of others.
That I don’t happen to agree & that I find some of those opinions rather extreme is my own opinion & one I am perfectly entitled to.
Just as you are entitled to yours.

“There are 60 seconds in a minute� is a fact.

If you cast the wrong actors/ actresses in a production, whether well or poorly written the result will most likely be somewhat less than the desired one.
In the same way as putting the wrong fuel into a high performance engine.

If I truly felt Moffat was a sexist, racist, homophobe etc I certainly wouldn’t defend him in a million years.

I have made absolutely no assumptions about you, whereas you seem to think that, simply because I’m male (no “cis� required), I have had an easy life & so I’m insensitive to what you’re highlighting.
As if merely being male relegates me to being a neanderthal, knuckle dragging asshat. Isn’t that manbashing? & what do you know about my life?
I have also shown no hostility towards you & yet you round on me declaring I am part of the problem.
Thanks for that.

All that being said & not wanting to turn this whole thread into a complete train wreck, if you would like to take this to PMs, please feel free

Even when I was very young (many years ago) and used to watch Dr Who from behind the safety of my settee it used to bother me that there were no ethnic minority lesbian Timelords and this situation does not appear to have changed.

Maybe they were all exterminated

million voices wrote:Even when I was very young (many years ago) and used to watch Dr Who from behind the safety of my settee it used to bother me that there were no ethnic minority lesbian Timelords and this situation does not appear to have changed.

Maybe they were all exterminated

How do you know there were/are no lesbian Time Lords? The sexuality of the vast majority has never been addressed, so it's entirely an assumption.

My Dad told me - and she should know

... also if there were female Time Lords they would have been referred to as Time Ladies and as far as I can recall they have not had a mention

nor have Time Gentlemen please

million voices wrote:... also if there were female Time Lords they would have been referred to as Time Ladies and as far as I can recall they have not had a mention

Wrong

That just shows what a fat lot I know

Was she gay?

Jeremiah wrote:

million voices wrote:... also if there were female Time Lords they would have been referred to as Time Ladies and as far as I can recall they have not had a mention

Wrong

Wrong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/ ... ompanions/

Pista wrote:you seem to think that, simply because I’m male (no “cis� required), I have had an easy life & so I’m insensitive to what you’re highlighting.
As if merely being male relegates me to being a neanderthal, knuckle dragging asshat.

Dude, you have to accept that white male privilege exists though; we go through life on the "easy" setting compared to women, people of colour, etc.

markfiend wrote:

Pista wrote:you seem to think that, simply because I’m male (no “cis� required), I have had an easy life & so I’m insensitive to what you’re highlighting.
As if merely being male relegates me to being a neanderthal, knuckle dragging asshat.

Dude, you have to accept that white male privilege exists though; we go through life on the "easy" setting compared to women, people of colour, etc.

Aye Mark. I never said it didn't exist though

Phoebe Waller-Bridge bookies favourite for the Thirteenth Doctor

What do we think? Could be difficult to fit it around filming 'Han Solo', but A) great sci-fi credentials and B) Bendywitch Slandersmash manages to do movies and the meager amount of Sherlock episodes we get, so, not impossible.

I could tolerate anyone from that list, so long as it's not James Norton. I know bugger all about the poor bloke, but just feel he has an exceedingly punchable face. I could do without that sort of irritation in my life.

Personal preference would be Maxine Peake for absolutely no reason at all other than that she's bloody great.

timsinister wrote:Phoebe Waller-Bridge bookies favourite for the Thirteenth Doctor

What do we think? Could be difficult to fit it around filming 'Han Solo', but A) great sci-fi credentials and B) Bendywitch Slandersmash manages to do movies and the meager amount of Sherlock episodes we get, so, not impossible.

Meagre! If I never see another episode of that steaming pile again I will be a happy person
.

Don't worry, I rather suspect that the last series of Sherlock has probably killed it.

Romana was definitely a Time Lord not a time lady....and leila was so f**king fearsome and hot she would undoubtedly have been feminist in the amazonian style if not actually a drinker from the furry cup. sarah jane smith was -in the 70's and in the later versions including the sarah jane mysteries- a shining example of beauty brains courage and exemplary english reserve - a role model for all of time.

and even the Master is a women now for fucks sake- the master is ....the master. end of. and thats without invoking rosalie the sometime HL troll and trans- dalek.

markfiend wrote:Don't worry, I rather suspect that the last series of Sherlock has probably killed it.

Hope springs eternal.

New series & they jam a smidge of Joy Division in there

I did like the new take on the "it's bigger on the inside" line.

"Is this a knock through?"

Rumour mill going into overdrive that the new doctor is almost definitely gonna be Kris Marshall, not exactly ground breaking if true, maybe they want to play it safe