Heartland

for the Bill Hicks quote.

As to every bill coming before Parliament being 'ideally' voted on by everyone, personally I think Parliament should be abolished. But people voting on issues which affect them is a principle I uphold. That just doesn't extend to voting for some political whore who'll do what they want. Or what they're told by their boss. Or their paymaster. We should elect delegates, not representatives (the difference being we elect delegates to do something, and if they don't, we immediately replace them).

Red Orc wrote:I don't have a problem with democracy in principle - I just think we should apply it

Just like Marxism, etc, etc...

Anyway it was you who I've discussed with on that matter, isn't it, so you knew that allready

markfiend wrote:Ideally, every bill that comes before Parliament should be voted on by the whole electorate.

But that doesn't work either, everything the government(s) do to get the citizens involved in things like new buildings, neighbourhoodcouncil, etc. only make the regular citizen more egocentric, and, after a while, most people will move to the right-wing political parties, because they don't get that in such a thing you have to make compromises, and not every single idea they had was brought into practise, that's where the right-wing/populists come into the story, they tell them they really have influence, and people believe this. The worst thing is that those parties know the people will never have any influence, but people still believe this...

Anyway, that's what happens quite often, and of course I've generalised, but still, you should aknowledge this...

These problems with democracy were noted by Juvenal nearly 2000 years ago. He predicted that, left to its own devices, the people would merely vote to give themselves the "two things only the people anxiously desire - bread and circuses".

Ah, Obviousman, we meet again!

Yup, it's me, with my ultra-left banging on about 'real' democracy etc.

If you mean what I think you mean about the populist parties, I agree - no sooner do you start offering a referendum on say immigration or the death penalty than millions of people go, 'well I think we should hang all the blacks/Jews/Irish/Belgians and that means more money for the rest of us' so that's probably not the answer.

I even think I agree about involvement leading to egocentricity, though I'd put it in a different way: the government 'involves' people in order to neutralise them by atomising society and making everything a question of self-interest. Some great champion of liberty in the 19th century (it may have been John Stuart Mill, though the idea goes back through french philosophy to ancient Greece) was absolutely opposed to voting by secret ballot - he thought secret ballots were a cover for being a scoundrel. If voting on PUBLIC POLICY means anything, then the vote should be public - otherwise, you just smugly vote for what's best for you and screw the rest of society.

Hence, in Britain, millions of people voting Conservative and then lying about it. 'Oh no, I voted Liberal Democrat'. Like f**k.

Hi Markfiend, sorry didn't notice your post.

Juvenal, nice one, but on the other hand the Romans did on the whole view 'the people' with some disdain. As we are all (I assume, perhaps wrongly) 'plebs' - perhaps I should say;
As a 'pleb' I rather resent being written off as a political cretin obssessed with my belly; but not too much, as I'm sure you posted the Juvenal quote to stimulate debate on the question of democracy, rather than to revive the Roman aristocratic party!

Red Orc wrote:Yup, it's me, with my ultra-left banging on about 'real' democracy etc.

Red Orc wrote:Hence, in Britain, millions of people voting Conservative and then lying about it. 'Oh no, I voted Liberal Democrat'. Like f**k.

In Belgium, a racist argument always starts Well i do not vote Flemish Block, but...

For the rest, both of your statements: very true indeed...

Ah, plus ca change...

Sorry 1 - I don't have 'french letters' on my keyboard (fnarr fnarr);
2 - I can't do that in Flemish (yes, I've been to Belgium, and yes there are people who speak Flemish who completely ignore tourists if they speak French. Unfortunately for the 'vlaams' (is that right?) no-one speaks Flemish. Except the Dutch. But they've probably got funny accents.)

Anyway the point is, yes, in Belgium or in Britain, 'secret' democracy is a cover for the most horrible prejudice masquerading as freedom of opinion.

Red Orc wrote:Ah, plus ca change...

Sorry 1 - I don't have 'french letters' on my keyboard (fnarr fnarr);
2 - I can't do that in Flemish (yes, I've been to Belgium, and yes there are people who speak Flemish who completely ignore tourists if they speak French. Unfortunately for the 'vlaams' (is that right?) no-one speaks Flemish. Except the Dutch. But they've probably got funny accents.)

Anyway the point is, yes, in Belgium or in Britain, 'secret' democracy is a cover for the most horrible prejudice masquerading as freedom of opinion.

It's the Vlamingen but nevermind and Afrikaans is some sort of Dutch/Flemish too (as elaborated in another topic overhere) with a very funny accent, plus they do speak it in some ex-colonies of Holland (Suriname, ...)... Most of them are pissed on anyone that starts to speak French to them indeed, but try any other language, and they'll be glad to help you

Anyway, I've got nothing to add to what you've just said

Red Orc wrote:I'm sure you posted the Juvenal quote to stimulate debate on the question of democracy, rather than to revive the Roman aristocratic party!

Obviousman wrote:In Belgium, a racist argument always starts Well i do not vote Flemish Block, but...

Yeah you get similar here: "I'm not racist but (*random obscenely racist statement*)"

Obviousman wrote:It's the Vlamingen but nevermind and Afrikaans is some sort of Dutch/Flemish too (as elaborated in another topic overhere) with a very funny accent, plus they do speak it in some ex-colonies of Holland (Suriname, ...)... Most of them are pissed on anyone that starts to speak French to them indeed, but try any other language, and they'll be glad to help you

Anyway, I've got nothing to add to what you've just said

Many apologies. I had unforgivably forgotten about Afrikaans, it is certainly an important language, the newest 'germanic' language on the planet (unless you count teenspeak, which I find incomprehensible half the time). The Netherlands did indeed have some colonies (Indonesia is pretty big I believe - probably more Dutch speakers there than in Surinam(e) which I have a feeling is rather titchy. Or maybe it just looks that way next to Brazil!), but the Vlaams Blok (I'm SURE I've seen it spelled like that) should probably accept it's never going to be a world-wide form of communication. I do like Dutch/Flemish, it's like a lazy Britisher trying to speak German. (Do you have an opinion on Frisian BTW?)

Indeed, I quite agree about the French/other language thing. I'm not suggesting they only speak Flemish - generally English works pretty well! Except on the Walloons who won't answer unless you speak French...

So for 'liberal (small-l)' Britishers who are frankly embarrassed by their own fellow-country-people's inability to learn... their own language let alone anyone else's, Belgium is a tricky country (ie 2 official languages, practically every person you meet refuses to speak in on of them - could be worse - they could refuse to speak in both, I suppose!). One is BOUND to offend someone, sooner or later...

Red Orc wrote:Many apologies. I had unforgivably forgotten about Afrikaans, it is certainly an important language, the newest 'germanic' language on the planet (unless you count teenspeak, which I find incomprehensible half the time). The Netherlands did indeed have some colonies (Indonesia is pretty big I believe - probably more Dutch speakers there than in Surinam(e) which I have a feeling is rather titchy. Or maybe it just looks that way next to Brazil!), but the Vlaams Blok (I'm SURE I've seen it spelled like that) should probably accept it's never going to be a world-wide form of communication. I do like Dutch/Flemish, it's like a lazy Britisher trying to speak German. (Do you have an opinion on Frisian BTW?)

Yes Vlaams Blok is correct, when I said Vlamingen I meant Flemish people... Anyhow ...
In Indonesia, only some old guys still speak dutch, and I believe their form of Malasian (that's their official language IIRC) is somewhat influenced by Dutch...
I agree that it'll never be a major way of communicating, Dutch is way too complicated for it (at least, that's what foreigners say), and on that matter, I think wouldn't be so bad if the EU would cut back on languages used for laws by them in favor of about 5 big languages (English, Spanish, French, Italian, German, any other suggestions?)...
Frisian is very local, and I don't understand half a word of it, it differs quite a lot from Dutch, it's more connected to English and Danish, I think

Red Orc wrote:Belgium is a tricky country (ie 2 official languages, practically every person you meet refuses to speak in on of them - could be worse - they could refuse to speak in both, I suppose!). One is BOUND to offend someone, sooner or later...

Don't get me started on that one, there is some problem (I don't know if it's covered by foreign media, it's quite stupid) with some vote-districts being bilingual, and the Flemish want the Waloons out, etcetera, very complicated business, no-one wants to give in, but it's a problem that isn't worth being a problem, and still it gives a hell of a crisis, well, I don't get it, and I don't know if it's a good thing to get crisisses over such things...