Beware! Offensive Content!

[Izzy HaveMercy]

It was Einstein who said "I don`t know what weapons the third world war will be fought with, but I am sure that the fourth world war will be fought with clubs and spears!"

I'm ready then!

AVAST!


IZ.

[markfiend]

Then I'm fully with you on what you wrote above - this conflict was most of all fuelled by disliked governments in the arab world who at last found a chance to blame someone else for what they have failed in (which is everything). I'm even prepared to go further than them "allowing" the embassy attacks - it wouldn't surprise me the least if they brought people in by bus from the poorest areas of the country...i.e. the people who suffer most from their own government. Very cynical but also very logical.

Aye. We know that scheme from several examples of the last century, along with them the Reich #3.

Aye. And this is my point. I forget who it was that said something along the lines of:

The Nazis came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a Jew.
The Nazis came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a Communist.
The Nazis came for the disabled, and I didn't speak up because I'm not disabled.
The Nazis came for me and no-one was left to speak up.

The time to speak up against these people is now.

[eotunun]

@IZ

And:

Damn right you are! @MF

Edit: (while I am tempted to fight Spears with clubs..)

[mugabe]

The Nazis came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a Jew.
The Nazis came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a Communist.
The Nazis came for the disabled, and I didn't speak up because I'm not disabled.
The Nazis came for me and no-one was left to speak up.

The time to speak up against these people is now.

I don't quite get your simile. It's time to go for the muslims?

The nazis were also fond of derogatory caricatures of Jews, whom they perceived as a threat to their society. Also, remember that only a small fraction of those insulted by the cartoons are actually out there in the streets fanning the flames of the Danish flag and this conflict alike.

[mugabe]

Well, if the radicals get more power, you may see where the rights that gays and lesbians struggled decades for will go. Down the drain, probably. And you don`t even need muslims, just give the catholic church a go.

I see that in the U.S. already. In what way does this have to do with mocking their prophet? If anything, this makes even more people turn radical. In fact, I think the rise of more extreme fractions of Islam in the Middle East is directly attributed to the presence of Western coalition forces in Iraq.

Did the taliban ask for the religious feelings of others when they blew up the Buddha statues in 1996? And will they tolerate you for tolerating heretics? Did the ones who faked cartoons think about the fact that they offended their very own commandments by this?
So will they reward your tolerance toward them?

So, you're advocating terrorist tactics against perceived terrorists? Again, just look across the pond to see that turned into official policy.

Ossama was quoted saying something like "We want our oil for us!"
And that is, as I suppose, worth a thought: If the oil wells run dry, how will the Arabians be able to keep up their standards of living? Could it be that there are some pers(ia)ons in the background with enough influence and money to raise such turmoils as to bring the oil price higher as long as this source of money works? Or maybe they are just jealous on the money and power the western governments make on energy related taxes? In the end, it is energy they dug out of arabian deserts, one might say..

Or maybe they just hate our freedom [(c) GWB]. What will the west do when the oil wells run dry, you mean? What's Halliburton doing in Iraq? Speaking up against radicals?

[canon docre]

To derail slightly, no-one seems to have picked up that the protests are not about the cartoons that were actually published...

article can be found here:

...The first event was a tour of the Middle East last December undertaken by a group of Danish imams to publicise the cartoons. With them, however, they reportedly took, not only the offending cartoons originally published but several other far more offensive ones that, apparently, they had themselves been responsible for producing. In other words, the outrage over the cartoons has been deliberately engineered by a fabrication of the grounds for it...

This situation has been engineered by imams lying to their followers, in an attempt to whip up anti-Western (in this case anti-Danish) feeling. Why should we curtail our freedoms on the basis of a lie?

... and did anyone wonder where all those danish flags, which gets burned come from? I could guess I wouldnt find in a year as many Danish flags in Berlin as get burned in Beirut in one day.

[eotunun]

Dear Mugabe, you are carfully trying to avoid the first point I gave:
The "Muslims" that claim to be hurt so badly are surely up to anything else than making the world understand how wrong they think picturing Muhammed to be. (And it is not mocking, it is picturing that the koran forbids.)

The ones who are up to that said so. And they accepted the appologies given, as far as I heard and read. The rampaging mob that is out in the streets, torching embasies and flags is up to something else: Ramapaging in the streets. Did you see the pictures (from Gaza, I believe) where Imams were trying to make the "Muslims" quit their attacks? Remember: An Imam is a religious leader! A true muslim mustn`t ignore what he says. That`s a bad thing! Yet them mobsters don`t give a f**k. This is about religion? wake up!

next:
Oil wells will run dry. We all know this. And the question for what to do when it happens is a difficult one. Our politicians carefully avoid to try and answer to it, because they probably won`t have a valid answer before the next election. And they surely don`t want to spoil the mood in an election campain. Scientists are working on the problem. Where? Well, Europe, Asia, America.. And Israel. While you still hear very little from scientists that work in oriental countries. Because so few get paid to do their work there. (After all, some of the fundamentalists consider science a kind of heresy, too)

From the beginning of this story in the news I wondered one thing:
You recognise persons or objects in a painting by characterisitcal traits.
The picture most often discussed shows an Arab with a bomb on his head.
Did Muhammed wear a bomb on his head? Answer: (All together now!) NO!
Then, does the picture actually show the prophet? (Chorus:)
Not bloody likely.
A simple bit of logic. But logic may be heresy?

[mugabe]

I think we might be focusing on different things. My main concern is less that of actually depicting the prophet, but more of the publishing defamatory/intentionally incendiary pictures of the "Arab as terrorist" stereotype under the high-flying flag of "free speech" and "speaking up against the radicals".

As for the religious issues/realpolitik involved, anyone's guess is as good as mine. I'm with you all the way on the notion that extremists and certain governments as well has blown this totally out of proportion in order to serve their own agendas. Still, I think that the cartoons were totally unnecessary, and that a wholehearted apology would have been in place. Not the "We're sorry that you can't take a joke" one issued by the Danish paper.

As for your logic, a lot of people would still be offended by the statement that their momma wears army boots, in spite of the fact that she very well doesn't.

[eotunun]

I think we might be focusing on different things. My main concern is less that of actually depicting the prophet, but more of the publishing defamatory/intentionally incendiary pictures of the "Arab as terrorist" stereotype under the high-flying flag of "free speech" and "speaking up against the radicals".

Which has, as you mentioned, little to do with what is going on in the middle east. As the drawings are months old.
And those who inflate the molehill to the mountain (actually a good one, EMWK!) are the "muslims", not the muslims.
And it`s the "muslims" that confirm the cartoons. And they, too, insult and endanger every muslim. For their very own purposes of which they hardly will tell.
I dare to say so as a very close friend of mine is a muslim an, when our frienship started, we talked hours and hours about religious topics.
It is a foreign culture, actually. And it is difficult to mix it with ours. That is why I say it was an awfully bad idea to print these cartoons. But I also say that we must stand against attempts to let radicalls take influence on our rules. The european culture works reasonably well. We should not allow it to get pushed asside by religious ideas. And the offense placed by the cartoons was not within the rules of our agenda. Still no reason for the danish government to excuse for anything, it was beyond their control.
Because general press control is wrong.
Bubba.

[mugabe]

Still no reason for the danish government to excuse for anything, it was beyond their control.
Because general press control is wrong.
Bubba.

A clarifying statement from the government at this point, stating that while they disagree with the material, the paper has the right to publish it, since the press isn't under state control, surely wouldn't harm. Then, again, I have serious doubts about the Danish government, based upon their domestic policy in matters muslim, not to mention the foreign one.

Angel drawers.

[Obviousman]

Just to wake this topic up a bit again, how about this:

I read Edmund Stoiber (minister-president of Bayern // CSU) wants a Turkish movie to be banned from German cinemas because it does about the same thing to Americans James Bond has been doing to the Russians over the last half century. It's a movie about a Turkish secret agent on a m*****n to stop the Americans trading organs of Abu Ghraib convicts (which is organised by a Jewish doctor), and other actions against the American forces.

Freedom of speech hurray

[christophe]

I read Edmund Stoiber (minister-president of Bayern // CSU) wants a Turkish movie to be banned from German cinemas

Yep, I read it in the newspaper today. And according to what I have heard the movie is relatively accurate.

[eotunun]

As a background you need to know that Stoiber is some kind of a "Riesen Rindviech".
That`s bavarian for ultimate aleshore. On last year`s election campain, he insulted half of germany´s population to gain a few votes in bavaria, for example, calling the whole of eastern germany "the frustrated ones" while claiming the bavarians were "brighter than all others in germany"..
So if he speaks up.. go figure, don`t listen closer, it is most likely crap.
Need I mention that he sucked when it came to work? He completely sucked when it came to react on a flood of rivers Donau and Inn. Realy, never mind him..

[christophe]

I see, but I’m pretty sure not everyone feels the same way.
And even then, he clearly still has a loud voice in the media. Even how ridicules it might sound.

[eotunun]

That is the big problem. The media need exciting storries. Catastrophies and fools deliver them. Nature of the buisiness.

[Obviousman]

That is the big problem. The media need exciting storries. Catastrophies and fools deliver them. Nature of the buisiness.

Not only the business, the people's nature too.

What would you rather read if you're living in Iraq 'America starts attack' or 'Europe talks on'?

99% if not all will read the first article first, perhaps it's even the only thing they read. And it's far more likely to end up on the front pages in the first place...

[eotunun]

What would you rather read if you're living in Iraq 'America starts attack' or 'Europe talks on'?

99% if not all will read the first article first, perhaps it's even the only thing they read. And it's far more likely to end up on the front pages in the first place...

Sad but true. Human behavior.

[Jaimie1980]

My opinion on the whole thing is quite simple. The cartoons, from what I've heard of them were a bit offensive. The reaction though has been way out of proportion. Clearly there are fundamentalists who relished the opportunity it gave.

Surely the beating of boys (and the obvious enjoyment the scum who did it received) is far greater indication of what's wrong with the West than a silly cartoon.

[canon docre]

ups

[Dark]

2..5..0..0..0...

[timsinister]

Dear me, canon_docre, what have you been saying to our Roman friends...?

That's-a Politics!

[Dark]

Aww, look at the Italian Nazi cunts, they think wearing insulting t-shirts is a political statement.

[Jaimie1980]

Aww, look at the Italian Nazi cunts, they think wearing insulting t-shirts is a political statement.

Crap isn't it? I come back to the same point that it's people doing it because they want to (much like the mad protests). In both cases they want to pretend that they are deeply offended / protecting freedom of speech. What there really doing is finding a means of attacking the other, that's the infidel or the person of another race.

[eastmidswhizzkid]

@ canon docre -you draw a mean duck, Jess!

[timsinister]

From the Washington Post no less!