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Posted: 22 Aug 2006, 19:32
by James Blast
I really don't have a problem with nowayjose's post.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 07:23
by mh
nowayjose wrote:wild bill buttock wrote:A.void wrote:People seem to think that Eldritch personally owes them something for being his most loyal nutcases.
Sorry mate but this statement is complete old bollocks.
Andrew Eldritch
does owe his loyal fanbase.
QED., A.void.
Sorry mate, you might not believe me but a few of us actually like the current band & sound and it's a bit annoying to see some nostalgic whingers trying to sour it up for the rest of us. If you can't accept that artists undergo change, like everyone else, and you want Eldritch to stay forever in the tracks of his early appearances miming a gloomy, angst-driven, drug-addled twenty-something at the age of 47 just so you can indulge in a cheap, superficial nostalgia trip you probably need to get your reality screws readjusted rather sooner than later.
You have to admit it would be a
fantastic spectacle though.
Otherwise I'm with the
Barman - bang on amigo!
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 09:45
by Syberberg
canon docre wrote:@Syberberg
1. Do you see the Sisters as trendy/hyped/youth appealing as the Artic Monkeys? I don’t.
You’re perfectly right, releasing records on a major is just one of many options nowadays and surely not the only way to success. But releasing on his own via the net involves a hell lot more work for Mr. E, if he wants to have the different parts of the production process firmly under control. As he mentioned on a few occasions that they’re talking to different majors about a deal, it would look like a step down the ladder to release on his own. I just don’t believe his ego can take it.
2. I don’t see the sisters come up with a mass audience appealing Hit single like This Corrision, More and ToL. Don’t get me wrong, I hold dearly the new songs and I can see some Single potential in Susanne, but in no way as commercial as the above mentioned.
3. and 4. I just don’t see it happen. Surely the fans would buy whatever comes out, but there’re not 500.000 to 1 Mio of them out there.
For most of the concert goers the sisters are a nostalgia act and they like to dwell in the heydays of their youth, rather then being interested in new material.
From a recording artist point of view his career is a failure, yes. He had the whole world in his hands but his ego prevented him of making enough out of it. After the Warner quarrels were over he thought he could easily get a new deal with another major involving complete artistic freedom and garnished with a big advance. Well, it just didn’t happen. Then the momentum was over.
It’s the eternal battle of artistic integrity vs. commerciality. That he never gave in is adorable, albeit a bit unrewarding from the fans point of view.
I'm liking this discussion
cannon docre.
1. Trendy? Only in certain circles. Hyped? All the words written about the greatness of The Sisters are true
, so no hype necessary. Youth appealing...well,
wild bill beat me to it. Certainly in the UK, go to any rock night or goth night and as soon as The Sisters are played, the dance floor fills with an age range from 18 to 35-ish. One of the reasons why I've gone off ToL'92 is that it's over-played in the clubs, not because of anything inherantly bad about the song itself.
Actually, releasing via the net would involve about the same level of work for Von and provide the level of control over the production, no arguements with A&R over what goes on the album and what gets released as a single, which is usually where all the problems start with artists and their record company. As for the pressing of the CDs, that's never handled "in-house", it might cost him a bit more as the majors tend to have good deals with the pressing companies, but they also tend to mass produce and have far too many extra copies hanging around so it takes longer to recoup. As far as I can see and from my own experience, Von would be far better off, from the POV of artistic freedom, returning to independant releases.
2. As we only have the live versions of the likes of Suzanne and Summer to go by, it's a little too early to make categorical statements like that IMHO. We also don't know what's lurking on the shelf awaiting the light of day.
3 and 4. I completely disagree.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 10:49
by mugabe
How many copies did the previous albums sell?
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 11:37
by Syberberg
mugabe wrote:How many copies did the previous albums sell?
Good question and I'm
still trying to find out. The only figure I've got is for Vision Thing (from Tim Bricheno's CV), which went Platinum (at least 1 million copies sold). As for F&L&A and Floodland, I do know they recouped, but what the actual figures are, I can only guess at.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 11:48
by markfiend
I would guess that Floodland did at least as well as Vision Thing. This Corrosion, Dominion, and Lucretia were all high in the singles charts as well as getting Top Of The Pops performances (and This Corrosion and Dominion were on The Roxy too) which would all have helped the album sales I'd imagine.
I only remember More getting on TOTP from Vision Thing. The other VT singles didn't sell as well as I recall.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 13:06
by Ozpat
Syberberg wrote:mugabe wrote:How many copies did the previous albums sell?
Good question and I'm
still trying to find out. The only figure I've got is for Vision Thing (from Tim Bricheno's CV), which went Platinum (at least 1 million copies sold). As for F&L&A and Floodland, I do know they recouped, but what the actual figures are, I can only guess at.
Thanks Syberberg!
And...the albums are still being sold....
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 15:04
by Dark
markfiend wrote:I only remember More getting on TOTP from Vision Thing. The other VT singles didn't sell as well as I recall.
Interestingly, you can get versions of every Vision Thing song from singles.
1) Vision Thing (Remix on TOL b-side)
2) Ribbons (live on WYDSM)
3) Detonation Boulevard ("Remix" (:roll:) promo single)
4) Something Fast (live on WYDSM)
5) When You Don't See Me (remix single)
6) Doctor Jeep (single)
7) More (single)
8 ) I Was Wrong (promo single and TOL)
Who needs Vision Thing?
(I'm sure Keef would agree with me
)
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 15:05
by Obviousman
Ozpat wrote:And...the albums are still being sold....
Indeed, even noticed Vision Thing on display in the window in some shop last year, so I guess not even badly
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 15:27
by markfiend
I don't think
gets royalties from them any more though.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 17:23
by Mokarran
I don't think gets royalties from them any more though.
Why not? I thought royalties were in perpetuity unless you sell off the rights. It kept poor old Syd Barrett going.
Mokarran
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 17:38
by Dark
Mokarran wrote:I don't think gets royalties from them any more though.
Why not? I thought royalties were in perpetuity unless you sell off the rights. It kept poor old Syd Barrett going.
Mokarran
That's probably right. But from what I heard, Mr E sold off MR to Warner some time ago. They own the rights to all of SGWBM material, and probably the rest of the releases too.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 17:39
by weebleswobble
So they get the annual £6.66 then......
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 18:32
by Syberberg
Well, after doing a little bit of digging (still got some more to do) Von has uncollected airplay royalties for This Corrosion.
Right, to save putting up a huge post trying to explain the murky world of copyright, licences, et al, a good place for an explanation can be found here:
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... alties.htm
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 19:53
by canon docre
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 20:12
by Badlander
Don't be so hard on yourself,
Jess, you already explained me the distinction between a cover and a remix.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 20:43
by canon docre
Please don't get me wrong here. I surely don't want to put down the impact TSOM has on many levels on the music scene in general. I agree with every single point
Wild Bill Buttock has made.
BUT dont forget that this is all very long ago. That the sisters are still played in every rock/goth club doesnt mean the people dancing to it would buy a
new record. Think about yourself: don't you like to shake your tailfeathers on old 80s hits? I do! But do I care if the artist might have a new record out? I don't .
(just one example out of my own life: I went to The m*****n show last winter to enjoy some of the familiar tunes. Do I care about their new stuff: No. Would I buy their new record. Never.)
It got evident on the concerts: the audience freaked out on TOL and went to the bar during the new songs...
The main reaction on my enthusiasm about the Sisters shows were: What? Are they still existing?
Let's face reality, a part from the people on this forum few care about a new release.
A part from von being (allegedly) complicated to work with, the music industry just doesnt see any marketability in TSOM. Unfortunately.
I'm convinced however that if TSOM would release independently they could ship enough units to make the whole thing worthwhile on a certain level. It'd surely be enough for us but I doubt that von wants to make the effort.
P.S. thanks
badlander, my endevour wasn't in vain.
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 20:56
by James Blast
@
Jess -
Revr'nd 
Posted: 23 Aug 2006, 21:25
by wild bill buttock
canon docre wrote:
It got evident on the concerts: the audience freaked out on TOL and went to the bar during the new songs...
The main reaction on my enthusiasm about the Sisters shows were: What? Are they still existing?
Let's face reality, a part from the people on this forum few care about a new release.
Couldn't you say the same at virtually every gig by any band you've ever seen.Lets face it you're more likely to have a boogie to the tunes you know than the ones you're unfamiliar with.Remember not everyone has access to the bootlegs that most people on this forum haveand therefore will not be familiar with the newer unreleased material.
I still stand by my earlier post;The girls still have the potential to big news but it will take a lot more effort by Von and I really don't think he can be bothered.
Von has stated that he'll make a new record when the climate is right.IMHO that time is now!
If not then his only other option is the nostalgia circuit of s**t clubs like The m*****n's last tour was.
Posted: 24 Aug 2006, 00:29
by eotunun
canon docre wrote:BUT dont forget that this is all very long ago. That the sisters are still played in every rock/goth club doesnt mean the people dancing to it would buy a new record.
But then, giving the new songs a chance to become classics such as TOL
by putting them on a record, (So they may be given airplay, don´t require any geekery to make their way into the CD player, get noticed by more people than those who populate sites like Heartland, Dominion, Poison Door etc.,)
Possibly then the audience would have it harder when thinking about which song to skip for getting their beer..
Posted: 24 Aug 2006, 16:02
by Syberberg
No worries, I have it bookmarked. You got all technical didn't you?
As for your other post, just because you aren't intersted in the latest output from older bands, doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the fanbase, no matter how devoted or casual, thinks/feels the same way as you. A good example of that is the post from
nowayjose. Just look at the recent output from say, the Nephs or Gary Numan. Admittedly, there will always be a section of the fanbase (regardless of band/performer) who only want what was, but I'd say they are in a minority.
As regards The Sisters, if there isn't any new release, it's going to be a case of diminishing returns.
Posted: 24 Aug 2006, 17:04
by 9while9
In regards to live performances and or expectations of a performer / group I think Mr. Peter Murphy addressed this from a most interesting view point in a recent Q&A.
"I would expect that anyone who has an inkling of what I do principally as a solo artist and Bauhaus will know to expect something with a vitality that is rarely seen. Their expectations are well founded. The only mild problem that occurs with some of the more adolescent audience (and often this adolescence is not determined by age, but often as those who claim 'they were there first time round', bring with them such
a self-created arrogance, that they inevitably fall into the 'they were better then' hang up and just decide to deny what they see in front of them.
It's a sign of complacency in them and a calcification of their own vitality revealing their propensity to live in the imaginary reinventions of what they thought they saw 'back then'. Sad.
The best audience are those with none of their own self created 'gods' of
expectation. often the newer audience who still have some life in them and an implicit purity of approach. They are mostly the most intelligent audience members."
Peter Murphy - Bauhaus
Posted: 24 Aug 2006, 17:15
by Badlander
Posted: 24 Aug 2006, 21:53
by canon docre
Aaaaahhhhh, Syberberg, you do my head in.
I think our discussion is moving in a circle.
As I said before:
canon docre wrote:Surely the fans would buy whatever comes out, but there’re not 500.000 to 1 Mio of them out there
And this statement was surely not made based on my experiencs with The m*****n and my lack of enthusiasm about their new product.
I'm fully aware that a TSOM release would have more impact on the world and there are still a lot of fans out there who doesnt see TSOM merely as a nostalgia act. (myself included
)
BUT: To think they could sell 500.000 to 1 Mio is so far off the mark. Really. No one ships these amounts nowadays.*
*If that would be the case, the record industry executives would hunt him down with bloodhounds and happily pour (his allegedly postulated) 3 Mio$ over him.
Posted: 24 Aug 2006, 22:03
by Obviousman
canon docre wrote:BUT: To think they could sell 500.000 to 1 Mio is so far off the mark. Really. No one ships these amounts nowadays.*
What's a more realistic estimate do you think
(in order not to give you a headache perhaps in a) the case it's a best-seller (in its sort) b) only does so-so c) doesn't do a lot at all?)