Heartland

stufarq wrote:Blonde wig, posh accent. I'll give it a bash if no-one else is up for it.

I'm already blonde - and I didn't starve all those years of doing theatre to not be able to manage the accent!

Don't have the teeth, though...

RobF wrote:People even mentioned that U2 and REM are going to self-release their new albums, of course they are, they could buy the moon, Eldritch can't.

One of my favourite bands, Trouble, have been through the major label mill and are now self funding their albums so its not just the giants. The problems Trouble are running into are in CD distribution - they sold a fair few copies in Europe but have failed to get the disc released in the US (where they're from). People are still buying at import prices though.

After reading this thread and many other like it here on Heartland I'm now very pessimistic of ever seeing a new Sisters album which is a great shame as I really like some of the post VT material.

Smallstone wrote:Basically the press story would be - where the f**k have you been for the past 15 years? Sadly if you're not appearing in the mainstream press you don't exist - to the world as a whole. All the touring they've done since say....1996/97 has been to as folks have said here repeatedly a decreasing loyal core fan base - and has passed the media by - on the whole (the odd review here and there). The part I'm guessing he doesn't want to engage in is - pleasing the press or playing the whole PR game.... Dull press trips. Two weeks travelling around Europe speaking to journos - can't say I blame him. Essentially going from territory by territory explaining - where he's been. Gets kinda dull.
Radio won't play a new Sisters single - outside of maybe ya specialist shows. TV wouldn't show a video again aside from maybe ya Scuzz's and Kerrangs of this world - but then Myspace and Youtube kind of make for that.... 'cept you don't see any money back really - even from PRS/Publishing etc.
Thing is - he could make a bit more cash from player bigger shows IF he actually released a bit of product ... The press generated would mean that folks would buy tickets to shows 'cos they read about them in - Uncut or something (I'm being UK-centric here).... Things is IT IS an interesting story... thats the irony. 80s Cult star turns back on the music business....waits 15+ years until fans start despairing...
Yeah a nice CD - packaged well, super jewel case or digipack, 60-70p each. Something fancier - a case bound book, 30-40 pages - maybe an extra CD of mixes or live stuff - double that and maybe a bit more. CDS sell for £10 in store these days - ya fancier ones maybe £11-12 - limit it to 10K - get the fanbase out. HMV, Play.com, Amazon and ya indies. Wouldn't trouble the supermarkets I think. It's perfectly do-able - the figures bandied about for CD runs aren't widly off the mark - you;d be talking in the 1000s not 10 of 1000s... Smaller market - recession - illegal downloading - ageing fanbase. The market has totally changed in even the last 3-5 years let alone 15 +.
He'd have to do it independently - and I'm convinced it's the best way. Find a receptive indepependent distributor and cut a P&D deal.
The retail costs gets stumped up by your disributor - your racking in store and ads in magazines etc. People who do the 'buying' know who he is.
PR is expensive upfront - but worth the outlay. You sort out your embarassingly bad website and agree to talk to the press a bit.
Age shouldn't be an issue - but it is. He's 50 and he hasn't made a record since his mid-30s. Paul Wellers 50 and Nick Caves 51. They're his contempories - but they're never stopped releasing music. Playing live isn't enough to sustain interest.

Hear hear!

You've got it right down to the smallest detail.

Maybe we should form joint consulting company and send AE an invoice?
That way we could finance the next round of Sisters gigs.

Totally agree with your view on the Euro rock journos... I'd really dread that if I were AE. Makes me think of the MM:s brilliant "Pepe Le Punk" parody in the late 80:s.

Smallstone wrote: Ah - this is like fantasy music business.. - you could market this as a board game !

Well, one has to do something stimulating with one's precious spare time, what little there is of it...

Board game, great idea - "Crash and burn (TM) - World renowned rock star extraordinaire AE:s patented plan for world domination - follow the intricate instructions, and don't forget to move backwards on the board. As an unexpected strategic tactic, you can at any time decide to not move at all, and instead play another game in another room." etc.

Heh heh I thought of Pepe Le Punk as I tapped away at my missive - but I didn't want to upset our friends in Benelux! Please the press in Belgium as Sir Moz once sung.... Important territory!

Smallstone wrote:Heh heh I thought of Pepe Le Punk as I tapped away at my missive - but I didn't want to upset our friends in Benelux! Please the press in Belgium as Sir Moz once sung.... Important territory!

Right -he was supposed to be from Belgium, I forgot!


Rock journalists are a great export from the country that gave us Plastic Bertrand, king of the punks! (Actually some of his songs are ace...)

Contractual obligations notwithstanding, couldn't he quite easily distribute everything via the net & snail mail: MP3's, CDs via specialist websites, and even premium limited edition vinyl releases. An 'on-demand' service, no huge outlay.

However I think his goose has now flown.

Simply put - no he couldn't do that. It would be an enormous job for him to do on his 'own'. The thing is Play.com/Amazon/HMV indies etc WILL want a new SOM album - logistics of this would be more than a one man (or cottage style industry) show could cover. He'd need distribution and someone collecting the money. This isn't like playing live - with payment at the end of the night. These folks will expect 30-60 days payment. Credit essentially. Online sales of which iTunes make up the lion share work v similar.
And contractually - but he seems to still own the name. There is nothing it would seem that contractually stops him from releasing any new SOM material.
I kinda chuckle when folks talk about East West and 'evil' labels. Personnel wise - I doubt anyone who was at East West 15 years ago is still there. Maybe the moody doorman? major labels have regular culls of key staff - thats half their problem. You end up dealing with a new regime - eager to stamp their authority - and who inevitably you didn't sign with in the first place. It's all a game of corporate musical chairs at this level - another tired old story. Folks like George Michael, Prince and Weller have gone through this. Folks like Damon Albarn and Lilly Allen are going through it now with EMI. Thats what 'could' have happened with the East West 'strike'.

Smallstone wrote:Simply put - no he couldn't do that. It would be an enormous job for him to do on his 'own'. The thing is Play.com/Amazon/HMV indies etc WILL want a new SOM album - logistics of this would be more than a one man (or cottage style industry) show could cover. He'd need distribution and someone collecting the money. This isn't like playing live - with payment at the end of the night. These folks will expect 30-60 days payment. Credit essentially. Online sales of which iTunes make up the lion share work v similar.
.

No not really.
Bauhaus went into a studio, recorded a album and gave it to a good independent distributor. And yeah, they were not played on the radio or had adds in the paper, and a wall in Times Square, but the fans found it, and the recordstores got it. So did the mp3 places. I think that is all anyone that has been away for 15 years and do not do interviews can ask for.

Someone said that Von deserves better.
No he does not! We do! The fans deserve better. We pay for him to live the life he lives. I think we deserve to get something back, say a new album.
So it is time to swallow the damn pride, look yourself in the mirror and admit that you are no longer the rockgod you once were, but simply a damn good musician with a great band and a small but extremely loyal fanbase. And act accordingly.

Smallstone wrote:Simply put - no he couldn't do that. It would be an enormous job for him to do on his 'own'.

No, it wouldn't. The structure is completely different now, with companies taking care of merchandise sales and distribution etc more or less for you., for a share of the profits.

Smallstone wrote: The thing is Play.com/Amazon/HMV indies etc WILL want a new SOM album - logistics of this would be more than a one man (or cottage style industry) show could cover.

Wrong again. The logistics aren't burdensome at all.

Smallstone wrote: He'd need distribution and someone collecting the money. This isn't like playing live - with payment at the end of the night. These folks will expect 30-60 days payment. Credit essentially.

The hire a part-time assistant. That's all that it takes to handle this kind of setup.

Smallstone wrote: Online sales of which iTunes make up the lion share work v similar.

iTunes aren't that profitable to small labels or to artists who go the DIY route. Better to handle that yourself though your website. Again, it's easy to set up, cheap, and doesn't require much administration.

Smallstone wrote: And contractually - but he seems to still own the name. There is nothing it would seem that contractually stops him from releasing any new SOM material.

Well, who knows. The way AE is handling stuff with the SoE certainly points in that direction.

Smallstone wrote: I kinda chuckle when folks talk about East West and 'evil' labels.

And I kinda don't chuckle, having considerable knowledge of how things sometimes goes legally (and sometimes illegally). Mind you, I'm not saying that it's only the label's fault that things go sour sometimes, only that I know how very well how (absurdly) far these things sometimes go.

Smallstone wrote: Personnel wise - I doubt anyone who was at East West 15 years ago is still there.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the situation contract wise.

Smallstone wrote: Maybe the moody doorman? major labels have regular culls of key staff - thats half their problem. You end up dealing with a new regime - eager to stamp their authority - and who inevitably you didn't sign with in the first place. It's all a game of corporate musical chairs at this level - another tired old story. Folks like George Michael, Prince and Weller have gone through this. Folks like Damon Albarn and Lilly Allen are going through it now with EMI. Thats what 'could' have happened with the East West 'strike'.

Correct. And just as a good relationship can either carry over to the "new regime" or turn bad, so can a bad relationship. Especially if it has to do with legal troubles over breeches/alleged breeches of contract. Then it continues forever as a matter of principle, and is in the hands of the legal department. Again, not that unusual.

il duce wrote: Bauhaus went into a studio, recorded a album and gave it to a good independent distributor. And yeah, they were not played on the radio or had adds in the paper, and a wall in Times Square, but the fans found it, and the recordstores got it. So did the mp3 places. I think that is all anyone that has been away for 15 years and do not do interviews can ask for.

Well put.

But on the subject of Von "owing" the fans, I think you're wrong. He doesn't owe us anything. We voluntarily bought the records, didn't we? He can do what he damn well pleases. I just hope he's free to do so, and I'm not so sure he is.

Yggdrasil wrote: But on the subject of Von "owing" the fans, I think you're wrong. He doesn't owe us anything. We voluntarily bought the records, didn't we? He can do what he damn well pleases.

Wouldn't it be in his best interest to keep his pension scheme happy?

Yes he could, just about, distribute it him sen'. that's not what I'm talking about.

He can't afford to record a suitable product, there's no way out of that. A sisters album recorded for £10,000 would sound like an embarrassing bag of toss, no matter what the potential of the tunes. The man's not exactly a singer, the vocal production on VT is great , because it's all from about take 198, in a brillliant live room, in a major european studio, with top-end engineers and kit.

Knocking it together at home on a pro-tools set up, or even in a couple of months in a good Leeds studio just isn't going to satisfy Von. They're not a garage band anymore, the new tunes don't suit the kind of sparse production of the early singles, we wouldn't get a shimmering beast of an LP out of them but a middlin' rock album with some better than average lyrics and a rather out of date sounding sampler banging away in the background.

When I say the sisters don't deserve that, I don't mean Von, he dug that grave in 93 by not banging out a single or two after the good reviews for Crystal Palace/Off the streets/UTG when his post-goff reputation was almost completely rehabilitated. I mean the history of the band as a whole doesn't deserve to end with dissapointing sales for a mail-order CD that sounds like it was recorded on the cheap, because it was.

The band as is, is not something you can make sound great in a studio without a budget. A big friggin' budget. Maybe if everyone buys 10 shirts each every time they go to a gig for the next two years we might be getting somewhere.

Smallstone wrote:The thing is Play.com/Amazon/HMV indies etc WILL want a new SOM album

Why will they? Fifteen years ago that would have been true but now the world beyond HL is hardly waiting with baited breath.

Does anyone know how well the recent remasters sold? That would give us some idea of whether there's really much of a market.

Ok - to clarify - they won't be like...counting the days since the last album - they'll be as into it as any other album that may sell a few
So - Cos I'm a doofus I can't figure this sites reply schnizzle out - so I'll just have to summarize
To Yggrdasil - some interesting points - but I disagree with most of what you say - but then I've worked in distribution at an independent for 10 years and I approach this from that perspective.... It's just the way I am... I greatly admire the DIY aesthetic and I have to put my cards on the table I'm no fan of the majors. In the UK/mainland Europe/US.... anywhere. Firm believer that the best music comes out of the indies.
I'm not sure what your background is - or how you know it would be easy to run a label on his own - or with a few little helpers. I can assure you running a label/management co. and putting a record out is tough - even now with less avenues to the physical market but many many ways digitally (or so it seems). Yes the structure is different to 15 years ago - but not that different - online stores work on the same principles - they want the stock they've ordered on a particular date, there are marketing packs to buy into and deals to be struck. Digital stores are a little different... you can't BUY space on iTunes (like you buy space on racks in store or mail out packs at Amazon). On the front page that is where more people see your product and you only get that exposure if a) someone up there loves you or b) your promo warrants the exposure. My point? It's all still about promo.
iTunes aren't that profitable to small labels 'cos small labels don't have the PR clout. If itunes is approx 70-80% of the digital market and on a good week an album in the top 50 say does 20% of it's sales digitally - thats quite a big (and growing month by month) share of the market - and it's bigger in the US. You think Von can swing profile on his own with a few mates (for this hypothetical album - I think not....
Your point I THINK was that if you sold an album off your own website you'd be more profitable than doing it via iTunes - that not the case. If arguement was even half true folks like NIN would be raking it in and Radiohead or whoever would have no need for physical distribution and some nice record label to do all the dull stuff for them. Again it comes back to promo. Bands and artists and their management live in a fantasy land at the best of times - when the cack hits the fan they're rarely interested in talking to retailers... far too dull.... and time consuming.
Re: East West and the contractual stuff -you seemed to have missed my point or just taken one line to fit your own arguement. My point wasn't about the NOW it was about the BACK THEN. As in WHY the relationship had broken down. It's all moot anyway - as far as one can see there's no relationship with what was East West NOW anyway - he gave up (sold?) the rights to his catalogue for example and the recent spate of re-issues had nothing to do with him. Allegedly.
As for recording new stuff - this is where it all falls down for the SOM.
£10k to record an album - yeah not enough.... even with 'modern recording techniques' of which I know precious little about...
The more you think about this - it's f**ked innit.... The easy bit is the selling - the hard part is getting the music done... jesus....This has made my head hurt...sorry...

RobF wrote: He can't afford to record a suitable product, there's no way out of that. A sisters album recorded for £10,000 would sound like an embarrassing bag of toss, no matter what the potential of the tunes.

I think you're wrong about the cost. And if 10K isn't enough, 30K gets you a lot of high quality studio time. Remember that recording technology now is way more advanced and much more affordable (orders of magnitude, actually) compared to the nineties.

I agree with you about the need for a good producer and a good engineer, though.

Still, studio costs could never be the obstacle. The band is touring around he world for chrissakes, and as far as I know the Doktor doesn't get paid 25%...

I doubt the lads with guitars get more than a living wage either.

I agree that kit's got cheaper, studio time, engineers and decent live rooms haven't. What we need in fantasy land is a combined 24 hour team of Steinman, Albini and Flood to lock the man in Abbey Road for six months till he's done the vocal tracks, a couple of engineers to get the Doctor's bonnet up and get fiddling, and someone to slap a certain guitarist round the back of the head every time he makes a squealy noise.

None of this will happen, if Von really gives in and tries to cobble together an album for even thirty grand it's going to be cringeworthy.


Post FLA the band have done the majority of their writing in the studio, with every facility on hand. They're not a rock-out live act who can jump into a decentish studio and rip out some tunes, they're hardly a live band at all in the way most people would understand it (though they've still pulled off some of the best shows I've seen in 18 years gigging and 8 years in the industry). They need months to develop the tunes in a real top end studio, with a talented enthusiastic team. They simply cannot afford it. - I wish they could, they'd wipe the floor with the tripe that passes as alt-rock these days...

has anyone considered that eldritch might just be a bit of a cock? cutting off his nose to spite his face?

theyoungbrain wrote:has anyone considered that eldritch might just be a bit of a cock? cutting off his nose to spite his face?

Your handle says it all, my friend...

But not to be a cnut about it: Yes. Virtually everyone has, at some point or other (depending mostly, these days, on the quality of the last gig they attended), entertained that belief. Many have said nothing else, repeatedly, for years. And there's no question that, at one time, that was 99% of the truth. (Although I entirely understand what sort of things motivated it and would no doubt have behaved very much the same myself under the circumstances. It's a flaw in my character )

However, there's been a fair bit of water under the bridge since then...which is why this conversation comes up again every so often. If that were still the greater part of the truth, I'd have to say he was just plain stupid - and I know he's not. A stubborn, opinionated, uncompromising bastard - but not a stupid one

Smallstone wrote:
To Yggrdasil - some interesting points - but I disagree with most of what you say - but then I've worked in distribution at an independent for 10 years and I approach this from that perspective.... It's just the way I am... I greatly admire the DIY aesthetic and I have to put my cards on the table I'm no fan of the majors. In the UK/mainland Europe/US.... anywhere. Firm believer that the best music comes out of the indies.
I'm not sure what your background is - or how you know it would be easy to run a label on his own -

I've run a label, I have put out quite a few records (both CD, vinyl and download only), I've also developed the first all-digital music store in the world, as well as several other breakthrough websites (including film sites, music video sites, etc etc). I work as a media strategist and have worked with some of the largest companies in the world. My background is media production and concept development, with 25 years of experience.

This is the way I see it. Please take it point by point if you still disagree, I'm really interested in what you have to say, especially since you've been working with distribution.

1. Putting out records is dead easy.

2. Putting out records is cheap.

3. Putting out records and selling them through your own website and at gigs enables you to keep the the profits to yourself. It is also cheap and easy to do, and requires hardly any administration.

4. Recording an album is an order of a magnitude cheaper today than 10 or 15 years ago. Yes, producers, engineers and good recording rooms don't come any cheaper, but the point is that you don't need them around as much as you used to, and the quality you get out of todays gear is so much better, so you can prepare a lot of the stuff before you go into the studio, cheaply, in a smaller setting, then add the sparkle and polish things up, do the vocals, etc. You're not as dependent on the expensive guys anymore as you were then.

I'm not saying they're not needed, especially if you want a polished and professional sound.

5. Promotion can be costly and has to be done, you're quite right about that. Please notice that I haven't said anything about promotion! I try to keep that separate in the discussion for clarity's sake. My point is, when you release a record these days, if you're clever, you consider yourself (the band/artist) as a company. You hire the external services you need, including promotion, which more often than not get's you what you need much more effectively than the usually inept and overly expensive marketing departments at record companies.

So of course promotion has to be figured into the equation. What makes the DIY route for the Sisters an attractive idea to me, is their cult following and their live presence, which means that they have a direct way of communicating with their fans (and selling product to them).

6. Yes, you need distribution. It also has to be figured into the equation. So strike a deal with the best distributer you can find, to the extent you require. Obviously it's going to cost you, and you're going to need to have the funds for it. Sure. My point here is that a band like the SoM don't need the same degree of distribution todays as would have been required to recuperate the costs 15 years ago. The costs to be recuperated are much lower today, and other ways of distribution are steadily becoming more feasible.

Again, sell the records at concerts, sell them through the website, and sell as much merchandise as possible the same way. Hire a Johnny The Fan who packs them and goes to the post office. He's not expensive.

7. Or go the indie label route. I'm sure AE could find someone he could do a deal with. Get yourself a really good website, and sell live CD:s, merchandise and downloads, and let the indie label handle the album the best way the can.

8. On the other hand, if you dead set on hanging around in the most expensive studio you can find, with no material prepared beforehand, with Jim Steinman and Roger Waters on 24 hour standby in case you deign to lay down some vocals, and you need 200 takes for each single line, and you need a full band with you to snort coke and generally hang out in the studio for 11 months, then scrap all recordings you have made, fire the producer, hire another one of the same caliber, and start the process all over again, then require global, top of the line distribution for the album, and a staff to handle all the deals required — well, then obviously you're going to need the mother of all budgets.


I'm just saying that there other ways of doing it. And those alternatives are realistic, doable, and even profitable. [/i]

Any ideas on how much it cost to record The Reptile House?

Not a good example as I imagine it was mob handed in the studio, but would be interesting to hear.

sigh, think I may have to change my ID to jethro tull.

Harvey Winston wrote:Any ideas on how much it cost to record The Reptile House?

50 quid?

And I still love it!

Yggdrasil wrote:

Harvey Winston wrote:Any ideas on how much it cost to record The Reptile House?

50 quid?

And I still love it!

you'd have to have ears of cloth not to

Harvey Winston wrote:

Yggdrasil wrote:

Harvey Winston wrote:Any ideas on how much it cost to record The Reptile House?

50 quid?

And I still love it!

you'd have to have ears of cloth not to

That's the smartest thing you have ever said.

I have given up arguing this. And everyone has come with really interesting and well thoughthrough points. It has been a pleasure. Thank you!

I just have one more thing to say.

I love Sisters and I DO NOT want a polished turd of a commercial album. I would absolutely love a dirty, nasty rock'n roll album, and I think this band can do it. And so what If Vons voice is not what it used to be. If they can record and present to me something like the liveshow, I would be more than happy.
Fot godsake, record the album with Steve Albini and I will come in my pants.

Nuff said.

il duce wrote:I have given up arguing this. And everyone has come with really interesting and well thoughthrough points. It has been a pleasure. Thank you!

I just have one more thing to say.

I love Sisters andI DO NOT want a polished turd of a commercial album. I would absolutely love a dirty, nasty rock'n roll album, and I think this band can do it. And so what If Vons voice is not what it used to be. If they can record and present to me something like the liveshow, I would be more than happy.
Fot godsake, record the album with Steve Albini and I will come in my pants.

Nuff said.

I was with you up until the Albini part - that's just unpleasant.