Heartland

EvilBastard wrote:

Pista wrote:

SINsister wrote: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the semantics...

Or as we call them round my way, "people".

Indeed. Although, if we need to differentiate, we should follow Henning Wehn's example and call them expats. Means exactly the same as immigrants, but without the negative connotations.

Would be interested to hear how this is received in Ireland and even more Northern Ireland? To me it seems the rest of the UK might do fine, who knows, but that this is undoubtedly going to create big problems on the green island? Borders have to be set up again, or not?

stufarq wrote:Indeed. Although, if we need to differentiate, we should follow Henning Wehn's example and call them expats. Means exactly the same as immigrants, but without the negative connotations.

(Had to look up Henning Wehn)

Aye, agreed, if we're talking about the same group of people. Dunno that/if we are.

I should probably step away from this thread, soon...

EvilBastard wrote:That's OK, SINnie - we love you just the way you are. And glad to see you back

Pat wrote:SNP + Greens do have an independence seeking majority in the Scottish Parliament. Greens have promised to support Indyref2 in the event of Brexit, even if they abstain this gives a 63 to 59 majority.I think your mistaking Independence support =SNP.

No, I'm not mistaking the two, but SNP support is a reasonable gauge of support for independence. The fact that SNP + Greens gives a majority parliamentary support is irrelevant. I wasn't suggesting the SNP's lack of a majority in itself meant they wouldn't win a referendum (it's a public vote, not a parliamentary one), just that it indicates a reduction in support. I was actually linking that to my opinion that the Remain vote isn't large enough to ensure an independence vote. Perhaps when I said that bit was just my opinion, I should have put it straight after the SNP support stuff for clarity. Sorry.

Pat wrote: I believe when you are talking about borders you're talking about English border security, provided by England (to protect their borders from us mad Jocks and our pals ) and N Ireland to protect the rest of the UK from the South. The South has no plans to provide border security/checks and neither does Scotland. There is no requirement in the EU to have border/security checks. (see white paper)

That was before we voted to leave. If an independent Scotland joined the EU, the English border would become a border between non-EU UK and an EU member state, as will happen with the Irish border. EU migrants would travel freely to Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, and the UK would want to introduce passport control to stop them travelling freely into the UK.

Pat wrote:The requirement to join the Euro requires the Country to have a Central Bank (we don't) but as we've been using a foreign currency for years it won't matter either way but will keep London Taxi drivers happy. Any chance of a source or link on this one, I've been googling for a while and still can't find anything but the Central Bank quote, ta.

All new EU member states are required to join the Eurozone as soon as they meet the convergence criteria. The UK and Denmark negotiated opt-outs because they joined the EU before the Eurozone had been set up. New members don't get opt-outs, and the other EU countries that aren't currently Eurozone members will be obliged to join once they qualify. So Scotland wouldn't have to adopt the Euro straight away, but would have to commit to adopting it in future.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eur ... dex_en.htm

Cheers

euphoria wrote:Would be interested to hear how this is received in Ireland and even more Northern Ireland? To me it seems the rest of the UK might do fine, who knows, but that this is undoubtedly going to create big problems on the green island? Borders have to be set up again, or not?

because ireland is divded in terms of sovereignty but united by the good friday agreement and the north/south ministerial council. sinn fein (political wing of what was the Irish Republican Army) are already demanding an irish referendum. i doubt the north will go for leaving the UK.

Before making moves towards another Scottish independence referendum, the SNP would have to be certain that the other EU countries would allow Scotland to stay in. Which I don't think is guaranteed.

Anyway if you are interested in outsiders look at this ref read an interesting humourous article i read few minutes ago translated from greek...

EvilBastard wrote:...sibling...

I see what you did there.


...and now, back to our (ir)regularly-scheduled discussion...

You should all look on the bright side....this probably means that we can see the return of Duty Free

Interesting discussion and interesting points from all.

I am rather more sanguine than most of you about the Brexit vote.

Pista wrote:I believe that the immigration argument was clouded by the refugee influx & a lot of people put them all under the same umbrella.

I agree with you completely here. However, I think the Brexit vote was, among other things, a massive protest against immigration in general and will be understood as such by those "steering the ship" over the next few years. So the so-called "refugee" problem will likely be addressed as a matter of course. At least I hope it will be.

I read a column recently by Bret Stephens (familiar to my fellow Yanks no doubt) in which he suggested an alternative to the EU which might have been created back in the late 1980s:

A free-trade association between the U.S. and the U.K., to which Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand—first-world, English-speaking countries—would also be invited. The right of citizens of each country in the association to live, work, invest and study in the other countries. Closer military ties based on a commitment from each partner to spend at least 3% of GDP on defense.

And nothing else. No central technocracy to “harmonize� regulations or taxes or the spelling of words. No joint legislature to supersede national ones. No super-foreign minister to represent the association at international gatherings. No superior courts to overturn the rulings of national ones or dictate the forms of justice deemed morally permissible.

Such an association—held together by a common tongue, sympathetic cultures, a shared belief in the virtues of free enterprise and the rule of law, generally like-minded political leaders—would have become the world’s largest and most dynamic trading area, with a population of 450 million and a GDP close to $25 trillion. It would have served as a model for the benefits of free trade, and as a solid economic and military bulwark for the West.

It didn’t happen.

To me, too, this would be an ideal supranational organization to which the UK might belong, and such an idea may again be possible given the right leadership in the aforementioned countries.

This kind of unified Anglosphere could also capably solve the "refugee" crisis, although who knows what the status of the crisis (or, indeed, The West) will be by the time such a body could be willed into existence.

Let's focus on the important, does Engeerlaaand get kicked off the Eurovision song contest now ??

paint it black wrote:Let's focus on the important, does Engeerlaaand get kicked off the Eurovision song contest now ??

Norway, Switzerland, Bosnia, Serbia and more non EU countries participate for years now without problem. It belongs to EBU which is a B difference from EU

Gollum's Cock wrote:You should all look on the bright side....this probably means that we can see the return of Duty Free

Dreadful sitcom - next you'll be calling for the return of Man About The House, Don't Wait Up, or Empty Nest. At least have some dignity and taste and demand that the BBC devotes the next 2 years of programming to rerunning Yes Minister/Prime Minister, arguing that Appleby/Hacker's behaviour is more ministerial and governmental than what shower of tosspots and fckwits take office after Cameron retires to the country with his favourite pig.

paint it black wrote:Let's focus on the important, does Engeerlaaand get kicked off the Eurovision song contest now ??

No, but I hear that there are plans to kick it out of UEFA. Hahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahhahaha!

Jeremiah wrote:Before making moves towards another Scottish independence referendum, the SNP would have to be certain that the other EU countries would allow Scotland to stay in. Which I don't think is guaranteed.

The SNP are a bit blinkered on that. They keep insisting we'd get to stay in, but Brussels has said we'd probably have to go through the same application process as everyone else. There's no precedent, and the situation may now be viewed slightly differently to 2014, but at best we might get the application process shortened. I think it's very unlikely we'd get automatic membership - especially considering, by the time we actually became independent, the UK would probably have already completed its exit, so we'd already be out.

stufarq wrote:On the downside, it'll probably increase the number of foreign residents being sent home for no good reason, even if they've married UK residents, which happens far too often already.

Yeah, even if they have worked abroad for a British University and are returning to their spouse in England,
while - since their fixed-term contract ended - they don't have any other place like "home", whatsoever, ... no matter,
just send them to their country of x-year-ago origin on the money they earned and ... easy ... ...
from there, they can still apply for a tourist visum to see their spouse ...
so, in the long run, love (and marriage) only between residents, please ...
and - of course - no love with foreigners without marriage, anyway, if you want to live together longer than a few weeks,
not to mention go for work in your field of profession as a foreign resident (and married to a Brit) for even a British entity temporarily elsewhere in the world ... pah ...

And fact is - it didn't take a Brexit for Britain to treat people like this ... but I agree, it will likely get worse ... if that should be feasible ...

Jeremiah wrote:Before making moves towards another Scottish independence referendum, the SNP would have to be certain that the other EU countries would allow Scotland to stay in. Which I don't think is guaranteed.

True, but I rather feel that there is a sense of "putting the boot in" in Brussels today. If Britain is to have the temerity to consider leaving the Union, and is (presumably) hoping that its divorce settlement will be favourable, what better way to shove two fingers up at Westminster than to be seen to hint quite heavily that, should Scotland declare independence, then its application to join the Union would be looked upon not only favourably but with positive encouragement. You keep the Union the same size number-of-countries-wise, you stick it to whoever succeeds Oberleutnant von Oink, you sell it to the other member states by showing that Scotland's "rebate" would be about half that of the UK's currently and that they're all committed Europeans, and when Westminster comes knocking looking for favours you give them the old "It's not you - it's me" line and send them off with a flea in their ear. Scotland attracts all the industry leaving England, resulting in whacking increase in its tax receipts, Bucky gets Protected Geographical Indication status, Faslane and Holy Loch get turned into wetland and bird sanctuaries, and everyone south of Gretna gets the shaft.

I'm not saying it will happen, but if I were Martin Schulz it's the game plan I would be toying with ahead of next week's meetings. Why, I might even call Nicola Sturgeon over the weekend and put it to her that, should she be considering it, Scotland's application would be warmly received. Hypothetically, of course.

iesus wrote:

paint it black wrote:Let's focus on the important, does Engeerlaaand get kicked off the Eurovision song contest now ??

Norway, Switzerland, Bosnia, Serbia and more non EU countries participate for years now without problem. It belongs to EBU which is a B difference from EU

australia are in it now and they're in a different hemisphere.

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:

iesus wrote:

paint it black wrote:Let's focus on the important, does Engeerlaaand get kicked off the Eurovision song contest now ??

Norway, Switzerland, Bosnia, Serbia and more non EU countries participate for years now without problem. It belongs to EBU which is a B difference from EU

australia are in it now and they're in a different hemisphere.

jesus, i have years to watch that dreadfull circus

EvilBastard wrote:
True, but I rather feel that there is a sense of "putting the boot in" in Brussels today.

In that vein, there's been talk of making the exit and its aftermath really difficult in order to discourage others from leaving, which is nothing short of protectionism.

In other news, apparently the most popular Google search yesterday was "What is the EU?"

Being645 wrote:

stufarq wrote:On the downside, it'll probably increase the number of foreign residents being sent home for no good reason, even if they've married UK residents, which happens far too often already.

Yeah, even if they have worked abroad for a British University and are returning to their spouse in England,
while - since their fixed-term contract ended - they don't have any other place like "home", whatsoever, ... no matter,
just send them to their country of x-year-ago origin on the money they earned and ... easy ... ...
from there, they can still apply for a tourist visum to see their spouse ...
so, in the long run, love (and marriage) only between residents, please ...
and - of course - no love with foreigners without marriage, anyway, if you want to live together longer than a few weeks,
not to mention go for work in your field of profession as a foreign resident (and married to a Brit) for even a British entity temporarily elsewhere in the world ... pah ...

And fact is - it didn't take a Brexit for Britain to treat people like this ... but I agree, it will likely get worse ... if that should be feasible ...

I work in a large Warehouse in Nottinghamshire. We employ many Eastern Europeans as well as other nationalities from within the EU. However we also employ at least six Indian nationals,including two married couples. They have not been deported,split up or otherwise persecuted because of this.

ribbons69 wrote:

Being645 wrote:

stufarq wrote:On the downside, it'll probably increase the number of foreign residents being sent home for no good reason, even if they've married UK residents, which happens far too often already.

Yeah, even if they have worked abroad for a British University and are returning to their spouse in England,
while - since their fixed-term contract ended - they don't have any other place like "home", whatsoever, ... no matter,
just send them to their country of x-year-ago origin on the money they earned and ... easy ... ...
from there, they can still apply for a tourist visum to see their spouse ...
so, in the long run, love (and marriage) only between residents, please ...
and - of course - no love with foreigners without marriage, anyway, if you want to live together longer than a few weeks,
not to mention go for work in your field of profession as a foreign resident (and married to a Brit) for even a British entity temporarily elsewhere in the world ... pah ...

And fact is - it didn't take a Brexit for Britain to treat people like this ... but I agree, it will likely get worse ... if that should be feasible ...

I work in a large Warehouse in Nottinghamshire. We employ many Eastern Europeans as well as other nationalities from within the EU. However we also employ at least six Indian nationals,including two married couples. They have not been deported, split up or otherwise persecuted because of this.

Yes, but cases as described above do happen as well, even to Americans ... it's just incredible!!!
Also Indian nationals are still commonwealth people, which always makes a slight difference in Britain.

Anyway, this happened already before Brexit. And Brexit for me now is just extremely saddening, complicating things even more again.
An EU without Britain, that's just not normal and a sign that silly nationalism has gained power to a critical extent worldwide,
while the idea of the nation state should, IMO, be obsolete for everyone with a brain ... ...

Of course, there is culture and of course, there should be respect between cultures of any kind, and where this is not given,
tensions arise ending in change, be it by destruction or development to the better. Only the future will show what this Brexit
will bring to the world. I'm pessimistic.

stufarq wrote:In other news, apparently the most popular Google search yesterday was "What is the EU?"

No doubt those searches originated here in the U.S...