Heartland

SINsister wrote:

stufarq wrote:In other news, apparently the most popular Google search yesterday was "What is the EU?"

No doubt those searches originated here in the U.S...

... ... anyway, whatever it was, the ideas of it will change now ...
just like with the US, decades ago the country of the free and easy.
In both cases, that, apparently, was just an attempt of a dream ... ...

Being645 wrote: In both cases, that, apparently, was just an attempt of a dream ... ...

& one well worth having & striving to achieve.

Pista wrote:

Being645 wrote: In both cases, that, apparently, was just an attempt of a dream ... ...

& one well worth having & striving to achieve.

Hippie!!! ... ...

This thread continues to be fascinating and insightful to me. Just last night (I'm visiting family in Eastern Europe) I was accosted by a group of drunken German soccer hooligans singing songs about how great the Brexit is. They're happy to see the UK go. I did not know what to think of it. Still not sure.

sultan2075 wrote:This thread continues to be fascinating and insightful to me. Just last night (I'm visiting family in Eastern Europe) I was accosted by a group of drunken German soccer hooligans singing songs about how great the Brexit is. They're happy to see the UK go. I did not know what to think of it. Still not sure.

You're in Eastern Europe?
Yay! Where you at?

i daresay german soccer hooligans are of the same mentality as ours, and still harp on about the great rivalry (which is ancient history) between britain and germany eg 2 world wars and a world cup etc etc. maybe theyre celebrating seeing the back of any affiliation between our countries; maybe they see what a collossal disaster it is for the old enemy.

Pista wrote:

sultan2075 wrote:This thread continues to be fascinating and insightful to me. Just last night (I'm visiting family in Eastern Europe) I was accosted by a group of drunken German soccer hooligans singing songs about how great the Brexit is. They're happy to see the UK go. I did not know what to think of it. Still not sure.

You're in Eastern Europe?
Yay! Where you at?

Vilnius - I aim to be back regularly.

If you venture over Hungary way, give us a shout.
A cold one awaits

I'd love to - but we're here for one more day, then back to DC (alas - I have fallen in love with Vilnius. Perhaps unsurprising given that I fell in love with a gal from Vilnius 16 years ago. And before anyone asks, we met in a course on Plato's Laws).

sultan2075 wrote:I'd love to - but we're here for one more day, then back to DC (alas - I have fallen in love with Vilnius. Perhaps unsurprising given that I fell in love with a gal from Vilnius 16 years ago. And before anyone asks, we met in a course on Plato's Laws).

Next time then.
If those Europeans let me stay that is

Pista wrote:

sultan2075 wrote:I'd love to - but we're here for one more day, then back to DC (alas - I have fallen in love with Vilnius. Perhaps unsurprising given that I fell in love with a gal from Vilnius 16 years ago. And before anyone asks, we met in a course on Plato's Laws).

Next time then.
If those Europeans let me stay that is

Aye, we have been playing "tag" for a while, haven't we? If you're ever in Washington DC, drop me a line.

sultan2075 wrote:

Pista wrote:

sultan2075 wrote:I'd love to - but we're here for one more day, then back to DC (alas - I have fallen in love with Vilnius. Perhaps unsurprising given that I fell in love with a gal from Vilnius 16 years ago. And before anyone asks, we met in a course on Plato's Laws).

Next time then.
If those Europeans let me stay that is

Aye, we have been playing "tag" for a while, haven't we? If you're ever in Washington DC, drop me a line.

Will do if I ever get there

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:i daresay german soccer hooligans are of the same mentality as ours, and still harp on about the great rivalry (which is ancient history) between britain and germany eg 2 world wars and a world cup etc etc. maybe theyre celebrating seeing the back of any affiliation between our countries; maybe they see what a collossal disaster it is for the old enemy.

Many pro-EU people here in Germany seem to be relieved that what they consider a permanent troublemaker has gone. They also were not happy about the "Extrawurst" (special treatment) that Britain has been claiming for itself, like the contributions rebate. The general belief seems to be that Britain wanted to leave because they cannot dominate like they did in their empire.

Others, who are more pro-British, are glad about BREXIT because it damages the EU, which they are opposed to, and hope it will set a precedent for others to follow.

nowayjose wrote:

eastmidswhizzkid wrote:i daresay german soccer hooligans are of the same mentality as ours, and still harp on about the great rivalry (which is ancient history) between britain and germany eg 2 world wars and a world cup etc etc. maybe theyre celebrating seeing the back of any affiliation between our countries; maybe they see what a collossal disaster it is for the old enemy.

Many pro-EU people here in Germany seem to be relieved that what they consider a permanent troublemaker has gone. They also were not happy about the "Extrawurst" (special treatment) that Britain has been claiming for itself, like the contributions rebate. The general belief seems to be that Britain wanted to leave because they cannot dominate like they did in their empire.

Others, who are more pro-British, are glad about BREXIT because it damages the EU, which they are opposed to, and hope it will set a precedent for others to follow.

neither group sound like german soccer hooligans though do they?

as for us demanding "special treatment", if other countries had been more willing to stand-up for their individual rights/beliefs/needs perhaps we would have had more reform within the EU.

stufarq wrote: All new EU member states are required to join the Eurozone as soon as they meet the convergence criteria. The UK and Denmark negotiated opt-outs because they joined the EU before the Eurozone had been set up. New members don't get opt-outs, and the other EU countries that aren't currently Eurozone members will be obliged to join once they qualify. So Scotland wouldn't have to adopt the Euro straight away, but would have to commit to adopting it in future.

That's true, but that's also not true. When it was very close that PL was about to meet convergence criteria, and it was after 2008, no one here said that we have to join Euro-currency-zone. None will do that untill Eurozone will be healed. It's not an automatic procedure, it's still up to every country, but in treaty it's written that country will do join Eurozone.
Not to mention that countries can play it's economic and fiscal policy to not to meet that criteria.

Also, some countries had few years opting-out freedom of move by new EU members period, for example Germany and France. UK had chose not to do this for some reason. Everything was fine until UK started to had economic problems mainly because of s**t of money spent on alcoholics drug addict, lazy bimbos having 62 kids getting social benefits. Since then "immigrants overusing hospitality of UK gov. and people" turned to be a problem, yet none even care to look at statistics and check facts. That's what populists are doing all the time; that's what show how easy is to manipulate people or who stupid are masses. One of most hated by Farage and his minions Poles are paying lot more in tax then get from it. Some people in UK had problem with fact that immigrants are using - it's true to say that sometimes overuse - privilege from UK social benefit law, but problem it's not few people, but law itself. It's way too hard to look at the mirror.

Bartek wrote:That's true, but that's also not true. When it was very close that PL was about to meet convergence criteria, and it was after 2008, no one here said that we have to join Euro-currency-zone. None will do that untill Eurozone will be healed. It's not an automatic procedure, it's still up to every country, but in treaty it's written that country will do join Eurozone.
Not to mention that countries can play it's economic and fiscal policy to not to meet that criteria.

True, which is why I said we'd have to commit to adopting it in future.

Bartek wrote:UK started to had economic problems mainly because of s**t of money spent on alcoholics drug addict, lazy bimbos having 62 kids getting social benefits.

Or what the rest of us call caring about our fellow human beings. True, there may be some abusing the system, but blanket statements writing them all off are grossly unfair. Drug, alcohol and other welfare programmes are vey important, as is helping those who've gotten themselves into trouble.

And welfare spending isn't the reason the UK started having financial problems. It was part of a worldwide economic crash, mainly caused by banks lending money that didn't exist, and all of us happily borrowing it when we couldn't pay it back. (Huge simplification, I know, but it was a world away from welfare spending.)

Bartek wrote:immigrants are using - it's true to say that sometimes overuse - privilege from UK social benefit law,

There are probably a few (just as there are some Britons), but the numbers would be negligible. I'm pretty sure all the figures show foreign nationals account for only a tiny proportion of things like benefits, NHS etc.

stufarq wrote: All new EU member states are required to join the Eurozone as soon as they meet the convergence criteria. The UK and Denmark negotiated opt-outs because they joined the EU before the Eurozone had been set up. New members don't get opt-outs, and the other EU countries that aren't currently Eurozone members will be obliged to join once they qualify. So Scotland wouldn't have to adopt the Euro straight away, but would have to commit to adopting it in future.

I've did a bit or reading (thanks for the link) and yes I understand this. Today the First Minister was not talking about applying to be an EU member as we were already EU members, she was talking about remaining. Some EU members (French and Belgium) have written to the President stating they thought Scotland should be allowed to remain. I know there is no precedent for this and in some darkest reaches of the internet they are thinking that in this senario that Scotland could continue as the member state if there was enough support/will within the EU for this to happen. Actually some of the more sensible No supporting forums/blogs that I like to keep an eye on and a few of the more sensible Yes blogs that I follow. In that senario both sides reckon (yes they agree on something at last) that Scotland could inherit some of the UK's opt outs. There's talk of special status where we stay part of the UK and of the EU to having to use the indyref to do the job that way. Any thoughts on how that might work? Obviously the FM chose her words very carefully so she must have some kind of plan.

Pat wrote:
I've did a bit or reading (thanks for the link) and yes I understand this. Today the First Minister was not talking about applying to be an EU member as we were already EU members, she was talking about remaining. Some EU members (French and Belgium) have written to the President stating they thought Scotland should be allowed to remain. I know there is no precedent for this and in some darkest reaches of the internet they are thinking that in this senario that Scotland could continue as the member state if there was enough support/will within the EU for this to happen. Actually some of the more sensible No supporting forums/blogs that I like to keep an eye on and a few of the more sensible Yes blogs that I follow. In that senario both sides reckon (yes they agree on something at last) that Scotland could inherit some of the UK's opt outs. There's talk of special status where we stay part of the UK and of the EU to having to use the indyref to do the job that way. Any thoughts on how that might work? Obviously the FM chose her words very carefully so she must have some kind of plan.

Yeah, it seemed pretty clear she'd rather go down that path (and any others they can come up with) before trying for another independence referendum. (Not because she doesn't want independence, but because she knows there's no certainty of winning.) As you say, there's no precedent (I know they keep talking about Greenland, but I don't think it's particularly similar), and I don't know how willing thee EU would be. We'll just have to wait and see. There's always the possibility they'd make losing the opt-outs the price of getting to stay, as they'd be glad to get rid of them. Not sure what you mean about using indyref to do the job. Do you mean making it some sort of bargaining chip? I'm not sure how that would work: the UK government, who don't want independence, probably wouldn't have a say in Scotland remaining in; and the EU, who would make the decision, probably don't care much whether Scotland is independent or not. But I've probably misunderstood what you mean.

Edit: The one thing that does occur is that, from Whitehall's point of view, letting Scotland remain (if the EU allowed it) would avoid the potential constitutional crisis over the Scottish Parliament being having to comply with EU law. Although one expert today said it's less of an issue than people are making out because the areas it has to comply with are fairly minor.

I just meant that we might be accepted as is (part of the UK) or as an independent country . I've haven't seen anything that suggests that the FM is gung ho for an indyref yet , option is just a code word for threat. I would imagine the opt outs aren't too popular in the EU , maybe a time frame to abolish them to make entry as easy as possible?

re:eu law A prominent indy supporting lawyer doesn't think scot gov has a chance.
https://waitingfortax.com/2016/06/25/ca ... ck-brexit/

stufarq wrote:Or what the rest of us call caring about our fellow human beings. True, there may be some abusing the system, but blanket statements writing them all off are grossly unfair. Drug, alcohol and other welfare programmes are vey important, as is helping those who've gotten themselves into trouble.

That's, of course, up to your government to decide that things. As almost every families in PL I hade close relative in UK, i heard stories like mentioned social benefits for alcoholics, that's why i wrote that.

I just have different view on that issue, alcoholism and drug addiction is a condition into which people put themselves - like you wrote: they got themselves into truouble. Fighting and helping to fight that maybe debatable, especialy if it's giving free money. (but that's comepletly different topic).

stufarq wrote: And welfare spending isn't the reason the UK started having financial problems. It was part of a worldwide economic crash, mainly caused by banks lending money that didn't exist, and all of us happily borrowing it when we couldn't pay it back. (Huge simplification, I know, but it was a world away from welfare spending.)

True and not true the same, combine of econimic crisis and your social wealfare policy is a reason for your own ecomonic situation.

And BTW, thanks for proving - in other words - what we know from history - when national economy isn't in good shapes "aliens" are bleming for pretty much everything; what is done by one of few become issue of whole national, racial, religion minorities.

See that in the context of rising (again) hatred, xenophobia and nationalistic movement in Europe, and you see why i'm worried about.

stufarq wrote:

Bartek wrote:immigrants are using - it's true to say that sometimes overuse - privilege from UK social benefit law,

There are probably a few (just as there are some Britons), but the numbers would be negligible. I'm pretty sure all the figures show foreign nationals account for only a tiny proportion of things like benefits, NHS etc.

And yet that card was also played.


It's all reminds me a bit Ballard's "Kingdome come", people wearing ouftist with St. George's Cross and doing everything to make life of people of other nations, other colour of skin, much more "fun". (Which doesn't mean that i think that about all Britons or people here!).

Falling apart of EU (which may happen after or because of results of Brexit poll, especially when it comes to Denmark; I call them Small UK), means nothing more than back to pure national states, excise and blocking of free movement of people. Excise will be nothing more than a neomercantilism.
In the same time North America, Asia and Africa are building some sort of economic unions, to get better condition to sale their goods and services everywhere; vide: TTIP.
Falling apart of EU will make Europe weaker than it is now. Weaking of economy, as you remind us, is a reason to blame "aliens" for everything, that is very easy to turn into fear or feeling better than others; we know that from history, and we repeat that, it will be the same but different.

stufarq wrote:

markfiend wrote:Actually I'll go further: This will be remembered in the history books as the beginning of the slide to the next war in Europe.

Now you're just joining the scaremongers.

Yeah in retrospect that was a bloody stupid thing to say

Step by step, it's possible in mid-term or long-term.

So...Brexit struck it's first family related casualty yesterday - had a blazing row with my Daily Mail reading parents.
Some of things said were so inflammatory I'm finding it difficult to forgive.

Hom_Corleone wrote:So...Brexit struck it's first family related casualty yesterday - had a blazing row with my Daily Mail reading parents.
Some of things said were so inflammatory I'm finding it difficult to forgive.

Oh crumbs
I'm quite glad my folks haven't started calling me, but they are more inclined to be in the remain camp anyway.
Even so, I could well do without all the "So what's gonna happen with you?" stuff.