Heartland

iesus wrote:As far as i know royalties are registered to the music writer of the song(composer) and the lyrics writer. The musicians take part in recordings take fees fixed by contract unless contract says otherwise,no matter how many copies are sold at the end.

The thing is that the legal way to hold royalties for your songs is usually by publishing the songs in a way. There must be paper copies, or recordings of music and lyrics published in a way.

None of us knows a way that uses to publish a new song...

Some of (the lyrics of) the new songs were published on the official site, that would count.

indeed, that must count for the lyrics part at least, no doubt...

Guess what
When Markfiend mentioned that some songs are published in official site, i did go there for checking the titles and what is read in the bottom of some of thise songs?

© 1997. Words by Andrew Eldritch, Music by Adam Pearson and Mike Varjak.
Lyrics reproduced by kind permission of EMI Music Publishing Ltd. All rights reserved.
Not yet released on record.
For will I dream..


© 1997. Music by Mike Varjak.
Lyrics reproduced by kind permission. All rights reserved.
Not yet released on record, but you can find a rough live video of this song in the showcase section of this site.
Susanne


© 1997. Words by Andrew Eldritch, Music by Andrew Eldritch.
Lyrics reproduced by kind permission of EMI Music Publishing Ltd. All rights reserved.
Not yet released on record.
war on drugs

© 1997. Words by Andrew Eldritch, Music by Adam Pearson.
Lyrics reproduced by kind permission of EMI Music Publishing Ltd. All rights reserved.
Not yet released on record.
Summer

© 1997. Words by Andrew Eldritch, Music by Adam Pearson.
Lyrics reproduced by kind permission of EMI Music Publishing Ltd. All rights reserved.
Not yet released on record.
Romeo Down


That means that there is a group of songs that are property of EMI Music Publishing Ltd!!!

Susanne is not mentioned to whom property is...
What is the role of EMI Music Publishing Ltd???
Does anyone knows?

Not to be pedantic - but EMI Publishing are a Publishing Company
And a rather large one at that... Separate and more profitable arm of the once hugely large and profitable EMI group of labels - now in the 'ownership' of Hedge Fund entrepreneur Guy Hands. bet he regrets that purchase....
They collect publishing money for songs.

iesus wrote:If has not release the songs and a band record one or two or all of them and release an album without permission or something...
How can defend the royalties or ownership of unreleased songs??

Then the band would be breaking the law. It's different in the US but in the UK and most of Europe (I'm not sure about other territories) the work (song, book, film) etc just has to exists in some physical form for it to be protected by copyright. So the lyrics scrawled on the back of a fag packet would just about do.

iesus wrote:The thing is that the legal way to hold royalties for your songs is usually by publishing the songs in a way. There must be paper copies, or recordings of music and lyrics published in a way.

They don't have to be published, they just have to exist. But a publishing deal makes it easier to collect the royalties.

iesus wrote:As far as i know royalties are registered to the music writer of the song(composer) and the lyrics writer. The musicians take part in recordings take fees fixed by contract unless contract says otherwise,no matter how many copies are sold at the end.

Not quite. Musicians wouldn't receive any of the songwriting royalties but, while session musicians usually receive a flat fee, full time band members usually get a royalty from the record sales, same as actors get a royalty off DVD sales. As you say, it depends on their contract but that's usually the way it works. Having said that, some bands credit everyone as songwriters whether they contributed or not so that everyone gets an equal share of the royalties. It keeps everyone happy.

Yggdrasil wrote:

RobF wrote: On a serious note ANYTHING to counteract the squeely Ibanez twiddly wank taking over would be a bonus. I love metal influence as in VT style panzer riffs and motorhead covers. But this late preponderance for clean solos with little harmonic tricks in them is most distressing.

Yep. The squeely guitar playing sounds dated, unimaginative and horrible.

Bring on the panzer riffs(TM)!

You mean buckethead?

Yggdrasil wrote:Yep. The squeely guitar playing sounds dated, unimaginative and horrible.

Bring on the panzer riffs(TM)!

You mean buckethead?[/quote]

Buckethead is pretty good when he doesn't widdle.

As far as EMI is concerned... If you go to their website and search for Eldritch as the writer, you'll get Sissie songs currently registered with them.

WAR ON DRUGS
ANDREW TAYLOR (ELDRITCH,ANDREW)

Currently the only new song listed.


Note that Susanne doesn't mention Von, and the lyrics are merely "reproduced by kind permission". Part of me thinks it may have to do with the video that was up at the website at one point.

And then there's the whole 'talking to labels' thing.


Shorlty following the To The Planet Edge tour in '99:

12 November 1999. Press reports suggest that Eldritch is psyching himself up for a tilt at record companies. In an interview with “Allstar�: "We're in no particular rush about it, but we're putting songs down now," says Eldritch. "It will take us another six months to finish it, and then shop it around. I would hope to be putting out singles somewhere at the end of the spring."

Later in the interview it is suggested that The Sisters will entertain offers in the region of $3,000,000. On the face of it, this appears an astonishing demand for a band that hasn’t released any significant new material for 10 years. However, there are a number of unspecified parameters that would affect the size of the advance, not least the number of albums that a proposed deal would cover. Sales figures for recent (!) Sisters albums are a matter of debate: I estimate figures between 500,000 and a million. In the context of a worldwide deal for, say, 3 albums, the sponds look reasonable. - GPS


After the 2001 shows:

"29 August 2001. Eldritch had some time ago spoken to all major record labels and received interest until the financial arrangements were discussed: "they say they love you until you tell them how much it will cost them to love you". - GPS


And after the Silver Bullet tour:

"16 October 2006. Every now and then, the gothic network is waking up with cheers as a new album and single from Sisters Of Mercy is being announced. Also last week this was the case as several mailinglists announced a new album and single from the UK cult act. Allas, once again it was a rehashing of the good old news that has been on the band's official webpage for ages now. But what the rumours did not tell was that apparently the band would be negociating with the brand new Universal sublabel W14 Music. It was a source close to the label who informed us that the band was contacted and that talks had started." - Side-line


Further into the year:

"December 2006. There are persistent rumours that also The Sisters Of Mercy are joining [W14] if they can agree on the money issue that is. - Side-line

It's almost a lasting trend. Von keeps raising his profile every now and then by touring, shops the band around and the deal falls apart due to financial reasons. Doesn't naturally exclude the possibility of some remaining EastWest shenanigans.


Even so, Ben maintains they've continued writing new material since Adam's departure, and currently, one possiblity (among a million others) is Von's preference to have a backlog of new material with the current lineup.

"10 November 2008. SL: How deep are you involved in writing new material? In which way did you put your stamp on The Sisters Of Mercy since you joined the band in 2006 and what about the future?

BC: We're very much involved in writing the new material. I like to think that Chris and I have brought a youthful exuberance to the band. It's less morose and more energetic. I find the live performance incredibly cathartic, it really means something to me... and I hope that's communicated in the live performance. " - Side-line

And so he goes out, shopping the band around in between tours. Again.

copper wrote:And then there's the whole 'talking to labels' thing.

Many thanks for the info!

You're right about there seeming to be a pattern to this... I just hope it leads to something, one way or another.

If that assessment is correct, it would suggest that the tours, rather than being pocket money for someone who can't be bothered to record, are actually a way to raise record company interest so that he can record. As we've said many times, he could record and release without a label if he wanted to but it's been argued that he might only be willing to record in a certain way, one that involves a label plying him with daiquiris and Vestal virgins. We can live in hope. After all, we have been for the last fifteen years.

The way the industry works... someone 'gives' you the money (if all this hyperbole is to be believed) to record - advances you (stumps up the cash = lends it to you - like a bank...) X amount for recording or the 'rights' to your recordings (a hugely dumb idea IMO) then you set a budget to market it - lets call that Y - then you make money if the sales amount to more than X and Y. Thats a really simple version - in these days of 360 degree deals and labels wanting merch and live and sync rights - there's a wee bit more scope for labels to make money back on their 'investment'...
In Vons case - right now - he just won't sell enough to RECOUP (3 million $s!)... he may of done 10-15 years ago - the period when he had a wee bit of traction (a modicum of momentum - but f**k me that ebbs away fast).... Any figures like that bandied around on this forum are totally ridiculous. W14 is an option I guess - they kind of fill the gap left after Sanctuarys demise. A nice pipe and slippers safe home for ageing rockers.... not exactly very sexy.
Meh - do it yourself Eldritch. Strip it down - it's ya last shot.

If I remember correctly though, the real motivation was "a bit of muscle to put it out". In other words, Von wants to be able to visit a reasonable sized city when on tour and see the new LP in the racks in some of the major record stores. In other words (again) he wants to create a situation where his music is available to both the die hard fan and the casual-but-interested punter (are there any of those left?), rather than forcing people to have to go through (admittedly not too inconveniencing) hoops to get it.

Now, I might be putting 2 and 2 together and getting 467, but I'm starting to build up a hunch that the purpose of that 3 mill asking price is more to weed out the record labels who wouldn't be prepared to put that "bit of muscle" behind the band, and that when/if things actually get down to negotiation, the price would drop.

mh wrote:If I remember correctly though, the real motivation was "a bit of muscle to put it out". In other words, Von wants to be able to visit a reasonable sized city when on tour and see the new LP in the racks in some of the major record stores.

...which are few and far between these days. Or perhaps you mean major gas stations?

Smallstone wrote: Meh - do it yourself Eldritch. Strip it down - it's ya last shot.

Exactly right.

stufarq wrote:If that assessment is correct, it would suggest that the tours, rather than being pocket money for someone who can't be bothered to record, are actually a way to raise record company interest

Tours and merchandise are the MAIN ways to make money if you're in a band today, NOT record sales, and that has been the case for the great majority of artists for far longer, and to a much greater extent, than most people realize.

So, making a new Sisters record would never be a main money generator for AE. Continued tours and merchandise would still be the main source of income. I just wish he would make a record to keep interest going and to focus artistically, and that if or when he chooses to do so, he'd do it the smart way and make at least SOME money and retain all rights to his work.

3 million $?

I very seriously doubt there will be any takers if he insists on that kind of money. The major labels are just empty husks managed by accountants and a skeleton crew spewing out more Britneys. That road is closed, and all for the better I'd say.

Just put out some singles by yourself. Make them great. Do some creative marketing. Sell them directly. Bite the silver bullet. It'll be fun.

Saying that the major lables are empty husks run by accountants and skeleton crews is correct.

I worked for a major label, Universal, for the past four years as the Marketing Represenative for the state of Ohio.

Last Friday I got laid off. Me, and the majority of the Field Marketing staff, lost our jobs due to costs.

The majors are losing money hand over fist. I can tell you from my work experience....major record companies have no idea how to deal with the Internet and the Internet is changing the way that people consume music, as well as the way it is marketed.

I am a somewhat successfull songwriter myself (at least on the independant level) and the past four years of my job and watching the world change has shown me that online and viral marketing is the new way to go with marketing music.....having a label helps but if you are commited and motivated, you can do a lot on your own.

The Sisters still have a pretty sizable fanbase....if Von released some music as online releases only...people would snatch it up. I think that deep down, he is afraid he will not be able to top Floodland or Vision thing, which is understandable, I suppose. He is only human after all, and he has feelings and fears just like the rest of us.

ZacheryAllanStarkey wrote:...I think that deep down, he is afraid he will not be able to top Floodland or Vision thing, which is understandable, I suppose. He is only human after all, and he has feelings and fears just like the rest of us.

Pretty much my standpoint - although I'm more inclined to think that he knows the material he has at the moment won't stand up to what he's already done. Is that because he hasn't found the band that can produce original music sufficient to carry his lyrics, or is it that he's feeling uninspired/tapped out, or is he content to rest on his laurels, or...? Who knows? There's been plenty of speculation, but he's not talking, and he's the only one who has that answer

I also suspect his 'feelings and fears' are rather more significant than those of the rest of us - but I'm wading into hazardous waters on that one...

I seem to recall reading a comment from Von (maybe in an old UTR) saying that "No one wants to hear songs about Andrew Eldritch and how he Hoovers;" i.e., his life has to be interesting for him to have anything to write about.

One might even suggest that the quality of some of the recent lyrics has borne this out, but I won't be the one to do it.

sultan2075 wrote:I seem to recall reading a comment from Von (maybe in an old UTR) saying that "No one wants to hear songs about Andrew Eldritch and how he Hoovers;" i.e., his life has to be interesting for him to have anything to write about.

I'd certainly buy that. Being more of Von's generation than that of most of HL, I am far too painfully aware of how mundane one's life can become - if for no other reason than loss of stamina

It's frequently the artists whose lives continue to be fraught with drama due to their own fucked-upedness who also continue to produce the most interesting stuff. If you've chosen not to be quite so fucked up any more, well...

And then there's the possibility of actually being content with where you're at...

Means you have to go outside yourself for material, yet feel as passionate about it as if it came from inside you, else you end up...Paul McCartney

So I guess Von just needs a fire lit under him somehow

Yggdrasil wrote:

stufarq wrote:If that assessment is correct, it would suggest that the tours, rather than being pocket money for someone who can't be bothered to record, are actually a way to raise record company interest

Tours and merchandise are the MAIN ways to make money if you're in a band today, NOT record sales, and that has been the case for the great majority of artists for far longer, and to a much greater extent, than most people realize.

Yes, I know, but it's already been suggested on several occasions that Von likely has another source of income and only tours when he feels like it. That's what I meant by pocket money. I wasn't suggesting that he saw releasing records as a bigger money-making opportunity. I suspect that he'd be more interested in it for the glory - as someone said, seeing his records on the racks.

7anthea7 wrote:It's frequently the artists whose lives continue to be fraught with drama due to their own fucked-upedness who also continue to produce the most interesting stuff. If you've chosen not to be quite so fucked up any more, well...

Exactly what's happened to Nick Cave IMO.

aye. the wedding present's songs went sh*t as soon as gedge got happy

But...

No, I'll leave it.

7anthea7 wrote:

sultan2075 wrote:I seem to recall reading a comment from Von (maybe in an old UTR) saying that "No one wants to hear songs about Andrew Eldritch and how he Hoovers;" i.e., his life has to be interesting for him to have anything to write about.

I'd certainly buy that. Being more of Von's generation than that of most of HL, I am far too painfully aware of how mundane one's life can become - if for no other reason than loss of stamina

It's frequently the artists whose lives continue to be fraught with drama due to their own fucked-upedness who also continue to produce the most interesting stuff. If you've chosen not to be quite so fucked up any more, well...

And then there's the possibility of actually being content with where you're at...

Means you have to go outside yourself for material, yet feel as passionate about it as if it came from inside you, else you end up...Paul McCartney

So I guess Von just needs a fire lit under him somehow

Yeah, this is true. I had been active in a number of north Texas punk bands, until I went to grad school. Let's face it: no one wants to hear songs about how I translated five lines of Plato before breakfast, or about how I stayed up late into the night reading Heidegger. Fodder for rock and roll it certainly is not. Honestly, if he's happy, good for him--no more "learning to cry for fun and profit" is a good thing (even if it isn't for the fans).

I can understand Von's point of view up to a point. He has a vision for how he wants his music to sound and be recorded, and he wants "some muscle" behind the promotion etc, etc. And for this he wants a major label.
Well, that was all true and good 10 years ago. Today we have a recordbuisness that have died. His vision does not exist anymore. No label will pay anyone $3 million anymore unless they are 200% certain that they get all AND more money back. And I am not even sure they will do it then. No one signs deals like that anymore. And Von needs to snap out of his 90's mentality and live in the present.
Bands and artists today are trying to get out of their contracts. Bands and artists today wants to release albums by themself and have complete control. Bands and artists wants to get out of record contracts because the major labels are way behind the development of the buisness, they have no clue how to promote artists anymore or what to do in buisness that does not even remotely look like it did ten years ago.
Record companies are foding, peopel are getting fired. Record stoes allover the world is closing down.
So why is Von trying to get onboard the sinking ship? I just do not understand what he is after anymore.

il duce wrote:His vision does not exist anymore.

very true... (assuming that's still his vision)