Heartland

I don't know what to think.

This reiterates my argument unfortunately...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

Hom_Corleone wrote:I don't know what to think.

This reiterates my argument unfortunately...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

Whilst incredibly sad, not a huge surprise
The fear mongers & Daily Fail brigade have really whipped it up haven't they?

Pista wrote:

Hom_Corleone wrote:I don't know what to think.

This reiterates my argument unfortunately...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

Whilst incredibly sad, not a huge surprise
The fear mongers & Daily Fail brigade have really whipped it up haven't they?

Yeah and now they're coming out with pish like "what? Us? We never said there'd be any fewer immigrants!"

markfiend wrote:

Pista wrote:

Hom_Corleone wrote:I don't know what to think.

This reiterates my argument unfortunately...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

Whilst incredibly sad, not a huge surprise
The fear mongers & Daily Fail brigade have really whipped it up haven't they?

Yeah and now they're coming out with pish like "what? Us? We never said there'd be any fewer immigrants!"

& the rest. They have really hoodwinked everyone.

"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? Good night!"

hellboy69 wrote:"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? Good night!"

!!Brain rays!!

nowayjose wrote:Many pro-EU people here in Germany seem to be relieved that what they consider a permanent troublemaker has gone. They also were not happy about the "Extrawurst" (special treatment) that Britain has been claiming for itself, like the contributions rebate. The general belief seems to be that Britain wanted to leave because they cannot dominate like they did in their empire.

I wasn't at work Friday or Monday, so today was my first day back. My German colleagues were genuinely interested.

After the joking: "You're all fucking idiots", I was shown a red card in a Euro 2016 stylee (yes, Germans do have a sense of humour , it was an interesting dialogue.

I think it's genuine bewilderment/laughter/WTF?. Germany's not perfect for Germans, and most of the people I know rant and rave, but then take a balanced view.

nowayjose wrote:Others, who are more pro-British, are glad about BREXIT because it damages the EU, which they are opposed to, and hope it will set a precedent for others to follow.

Haven't seen that sentiment expressed. Yet. But a good friend (who avidly reads the BBC News online) did quote John of Gaunt's speech in Richard II back at me:

"That England that was wont to conquer others
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself."

markfiend wrote:Cameron is now definitely #WorseThanThatcher - he gambled the whole country on this referendum, and lost.

I think it's called democracy. The people vote. For better or worse.

It's nothing to do with Cameron. He was just doing his job as per the will of the people.

If I was him I would press the ejector seat on my Aston Martin DB10 and get the hell out of Dodge. Leave it to Boris the Spider.

I am a great believer in democracy - a flawed system but the best one going.

However I do not think that there should have been a referendum and also it did not need to be fought by BOTH sides with lies and propaganda that Goebbels would have been proud of.

None of the truth seems to have emerged until post voting.

Honestly speaking, I'm still in shock about this. It's the uncertainty that I am finding most difficult to come to terms with - In or Out, but can someone please pull the trigger on Article 50, or choose not to? With Germany saying "no negotiation until you commit to exit", we've got no-one who is qualified to start trade negotiations (because we haven't needed to for 30 years), neither of the principle parties have effective leadership (through resignation or revolt).

Maybe I'm being unreasonably optimistic, but it's starting to look like Brexit might not happen - Leave doesn't have a plan, and isn't likely to have a plan any time soon, the France and Germany are bricking it in case Europe becomes an issue in their upcoming elections, it's becoming clear that this was never a referendum on Europe but was a way to punish the administration - instead of leaving, maybe we could spend the 2 years that we'd waste trying to negotiate an exit trying to fix some of the divisions that this referendum threw into sharp relief, embark on a far-reaching campaign of education on what Europe actually means to us (it's not straight bananas, bendy cucumbers, or euro-sausages) because it's clear that there are large groups who don't get it - then hold an election where the winner has a clear mandate to Stay or Leave. People were asked to make a decision based on incomplete and misleading information, and we need to accept that unless we do something about this then hostility to Europe will continue.

@EB
Leave deffo has no plan.
They actually expected No.10 to have a plan.
& now Cameron's basically said, "Fcuk this. Someone else can do all the hard stuff." Everyone's sort of looking at each other clueless.
This about sums it up perfectly

Pista wrote:@EB
Leave deffo has no plan.
They actually expected No.10 to have a plan.
& now Cameron's basically said, "Fcuk this. Someone else can do all the hard stuff." Everyone's sort of looking at each other clueless.
This about sums it up perfectly

Well I think we can guarantee that Leave isn't standing about in a kebab shop - 's all run by immigrants, innit?

But yes, that's exactly where we are. No plan, none of the alternatives (EEA) solve what appeared to be Leave's complaints (taxation without representation), and it's beginning to look a lot like the EU is the worst possible solution apart from all the others.

Bartek wrote:And BTW, thanks for proving - in other words - what we know from history - when national economy isn't in good shapes "aliens" are bleming for pretty much everything; what is done by one of few become issue of whole national, racial, religion minorities.

Not sure how you get that from what I wrote. "Worldwide" doesn't mean "foreigners", it means it happened everywhere, not just UK, therefore it can't just be a UK cause. And I specifically blamed the financial sector and used the phrase "all of us", which means people in the UK were just as much to blame as anywhere else in the world.

Bartek wrote:And yet that card was also played.

Yes, I was actually agreeing with you there.

Bartek wrote:Weaking of economy, as you remind us, is a reason to blame "aliens" for everything, that is very easy to turn into fear or feeling better than others; we know that from history, and we repeat that, it will be the same but different.

I haven't said anything remotely like that. You're not so much twisting my words as making them up entirely.

markfiend wrote:

stufarq wrote:

markfiend wrote:Actually I'll go further: This will be remembered in the history books as the beginning of the slide to the next war in Europe.

Now you're just joining the scaremongers.

Yeah in retrospect that was a bloody stupid thing to say

Phew, you had me worried for a bit! I rely on you to be one of the voices of reason around here.

Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote:It's nothing to do with Cameron. He was just doing his job as per the will of the people.

If I was him I would press the ejector seat on my Aston Martin DB10 and get the hell out of Dodge. Leave it to Boris the Spider.

I think his resignation, although inevitable, may be partly just that. "You wanted it Boris, so it's all yours. Ba-bye now!"

Pista wrote:

Hom_Corleone wrote:I don't know what to think.

This reiterates my argument unfortunately...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

Whilst incredibly sad, not a huge surprise
The fear mongers & Daily Fail brigade have really whipped it up haven't they?

And Farage has pointedly refused to condemn it. When pushed, he said he'd never encourage or condone it, but he wouldn't condemn.

Cameron's not someone who I normally consider funny, but today he welcomed a new Labour MP to Parliament by saying, "Keep your mobile phone on - you might be in the Shadow Cabinet by this afternoon."

As my friend said tonight, it's like the Tories have conceded a penalty, and Labour are just fighting about who gets to take it. And (my addition), Farage is refusing to condemn the hooligans.

On a side note, this apparent uptick in attacks against "immigrants" is troubling. Would anyone mind popping into their local Polish community centre or similar to say "Look, just to let you know that I'm your neighbour and I don't like what's happening. This isn't the way we behave, and I'm sorry that a small minority of my countrypeeps are being ar$eholes."

Might not do any good, but I'm ashamed - this isn't the way to behave, and it bothers me that there are people out there claiming to be English who think that it is. I know, no-one should have to apologise on behalf of ar$eholes, but I'd like to think that we goffs know a thing or two about being outcasts in the broader community, so maybe it resonates more coming from us.

Just a thought.

EvilBastard wrote:On a side note, this apparent uptick in attacks against "immigrants" is troubling. Would anyone mind popping into their local Polish community centre or similar to say "Look, just to let you know that I'm your neighbour and I don't like what's happening. This isn't the way we behave, and I'm sorry that a small minority of my countrypeeps are being ar$eholes."

Might not do any good, but I'm ashamed - this isn't the way to behave, and it bothers me that there are people out there claiming to be English who think that it is. I know, no-one should have to apologise on behalf of ar$eholes, but I'd like to think that we goffs know a thing or two about being outcasts in the broader community, so maybe it resonates more coming from us.

Just a thought.

stufarq wrote:

Bartek wrote:And BTW, thanks for proving - in other words - what we know from history - when national economy isn't in good shapes "aliens" are bleming for pretty much everything; what is done by one of few become issue of whole national, racial, religion minorities.

Not sure how you get that from what I wrote. "Worldwide" doesn't mean "foreigners", it means it happened everywhere, not just UK, therefore it can't just be a UK cause. And I specifically blamed the financial sector and used the phrase "all of us", which means people in the UK were just as much to blame as anywhere else in the world.

Bartek wrote:And yet that card was also played.

Yes, I was actually agreeing with you there.

Bartek wrote:Weaking of economy, as you remind us, is a reason to blame "aliens" for everything, that is very easy to turn into fear or feeling better than others; we know that from history, and we repeat that, it will be the same but different.

I haven't said anything remotely like that. You're not so much twisting my words as making them up entirely.

Yes it's true and it's obvious, that economic problems have few other countries. I pointed out how i see the roots of UK's economic problems. I'm not forgetting what is happening around.

Issues is that in other countries it does not cause such problem what some of Britons have with work immigrants. There not such behaviors (attacks, oral and physical).
Captain Obvious speaks: Poles, Luthuanians, Bulgars and so didn't steal anyones job, they're working where Britons didn't want, and still don't want to do, because minimum wage for physical work is not something that some (not all!) jobless people (mind!) would do.

Again, stories that i heard from Wales: some jobless Welshmen on social benefit learned how to pretend to try to work and on the still get social benefits - they goin' to work few hours sometimes whole day, and after that they just walk away, go back homes, fill the forms, sent it and wait for another cash transfer; I didn't check if it's possible under UK's law, but i believe that things may happen, because, with strickned law and for other reason, it happens in PL.

It's true that i overinterpreted your words and flipped it a bit, but it was connected to part where i wrote about economic problems and blaming immigrants for almost everything. Sorry, I should have made that clear.

Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote:

markfiend wrote:Cameron is now definitely #WorseThanThatcher - he gambled the whole country on this referendum, and lost.

I think it's called democracy. The people vote. For better or worse.

Well there is that

Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote:It's nothing to do with Cameron. He was just doing his job as per the will of the people.

Well, I think he should never have called the referendum in the first place, that's my point.

Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote:If I was him I would press the ejector seat on my Aston Martin DB10 and get the hell out of Dodge. Leave it to Boris the Spider.

Heh indeed. That seems to have been what he's done. Leave the poison chalice to his successor.

BTW any idea how brexit will affect Brits on the mainland? I hope it doesn't f*ck you over John.

markfiend wrote:
BTW any idea how brexit will affect Brits on the mainland? I hope it doesn't f*ck you over John.

I think it's still all up in the air for us at the moment.
From my perspective, I'm assuming that I will once again need to apply for residence & work permits so that I don't have to keep going back to the UK every 3 months.
Those details, I would have though, will be somewhere in all the negotiations that are to come.
I assume we'll also no longer be covered by the EU healthcare agreement & will need to rely on national services etc.
All these details are yet to emerge & I am regularly visiting the embassy website for updates. But I think it's all still a bit early to know for sure.

If Brexit happen - afterall it still can be use to renegotiate excess treaty; even that i can imagine how other countries would agree on that, yet then UK could blame EU for Brexit - then some issues will be covered on EU law level, but, i guess, most will be regulated in mutual agreement between each state and UK.

EvilBastard wrote:Would anyone mind popping into their local Polish community centre or similar to say "Look, just to let you know that I'm your neighbour and I don't like what's happening. This isn't the way we behave, and I'm sorry that a small minority of my countrypeeps are being ar$eholes."

There's times when I'm ashamed of the way that some of my countrypeeps behave. Then, quite unexpectedly, some of them prove that the better angels of our nature are alive and well. Thank you for reviving my faith in qualities and ideals which I have always considered to be peculiarly British, most notably the ones that identify people as people, not some nameless faceless wad of "some other nationality" - and when people are in trouble, people help, regardless of colour, creed, or political conviction. Thank you!

I think this is pretty despicable. The Labour Party elected Corbyn as the leader less than a year ago. Funnily enough, this is quite apposite:

Johnny Rev 7.0 wrote:I think it's called democracy. The people vote. For better or worse.

If the PLP don't like it, they can leave Labour and join a new party. If I find out that my MP is one of those who voted against Corbyn, I'll be raising a vote of no confidence in her at the next constituency party meeting.