BNP opens mouth, inserts foot. Again.

[the_inescapable_truth]

As far as I can tell, any discussion of the concept of race is complicated by the fact that anthropologists think race exists and is a meaningful concept while scientists think it does not. This is further complicated by the fact that of course they use the word to mean very different things. Still, I don't find this too surprising - race informs culture and so on.

[the_inescapable_truth]

I
I would love to expand my answer but I have been informed by the administrator that he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree as it is his website and he pays for it – so there! Apparently some of my replies have been a little too “bitchy� and has upset some bleeding heart liberal sensibilities (pass the tissues around) and if I continue I will be banned.|

For what's is worth, I found some of your earlier comments offensive and I can hardly be called a bleeding heart liberal. I'm just not a raving racist fuckwit.

[the_inescapable_truth]

The second objection, I don't understand, nor accept as valid. A person's religion doesn't mean a thing to me as a zealot is a zealot regardless of religion or political persuasion.

Come now. I've read enough of your comments on here to know you're smarter than that. You really don't think the content of said zealotry matters? Religion informs moral and political views, and if one is a zealot, the content of the zealotry will be informed by religion. We can throw up our hands and say "all religion is bad," but that's rather simplistic at best, and ignores relevant differences between the moral and therefore political teachings of different religions.

Some might say that she only got the the job because of her religion...

[James Blast]

I would love to expand my answer but I have been informed by the administrator that he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree as it is his website and he pays for it – so there! Apparently some of my replies have been a little too “bitchy� and has upset some bleeding heart liberal sensibilities (pass the tissues around) and if I continue I will be banned.

lemme write that down...

[Syberberg]

The second objection, I don't understand, nor accept as valid. A person's religion doesn't mean a thing to me as a zealot is a zealot regardless of religion or political persuasion.

Come now. I've read enough of your comments on here to know you're smarter than that. You really don't think the content of said zealotry matters? Religion informs moral and political views, and if one is a zealot, the content of the zealotry will be informed by religion. We can throw up our hands and say "all religion is bad," but that's rather simplistic at best, and ignores relevant differences between the moral and therefore political teachings of different religions.

That was a touch simplistic, wasn't it? Oh well. I'll try for a better explanation.

As far as I'm concerned, a zealot is a zealot when it comes their actions and desired outcomes that match, or at least so closely resemble each other the exact differences in morals, ethics and politics are neither here nor there (except for a few notable exceptions when it comes to martyrdom; Christian and Jewish zealots are far less likely to commit suicide attacks than Muslim zealots, but all will use terrorism, for example).

Another example (admittedly not the best, but I'm working on the fly here) are the actions of two diametrically opposed political leaders: Stalin and Hitler. Although their political ideology was opposed, their psychology was the same, particularly when faced with perceived internal threats. Their end outcomes were the same as well: Stalin wanted the whole world to adopt his style of Communist government (a Communist empire), Hitler wanted a fascist empire.

Religious zealots share the same end goals; all Christian zealots want the entire planet to be Christian, for example.

Hope that explains where I'm coming from a bit better, if not feel free to ask for more detail, or ask more questions.

[markfiend]

I would love to expand my answer but I have been informed by the administrator that he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree as it is his website and he pays for it – so there! Apparently some of my replies have been a little too “bitchy� and has upset some bleeding heart liberal sensibilities (pass the tissues around) and if I continue I will be banned.

That's not what you were told. Hint: It's not a good idea to tell porky pies about someone on their own website. Oh well, you were warned. Bye bye.

On the whole though, the thread has taken a turn for the better

[Syberberg]

I would love to expand my answer but I have been informed by the administrator that he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree as it is his website and he pays for it – so there! Apparently some of my replies have been a little too “bitchy� and has upset some bleeding heart liberal sensibilities (pass the tissues around) and if I continue I will be banned.

(Genuine curiosity) The administrator? Who's that then? When?

If you can conclusively prove that you have been threatened with a being banned, then we can always continue on our discussion via PM, if not, then I'm sure we'll be allowed to continue.

[markfiend]

(Genuine curiosity) The administrator? Who's that then? When?

QB did warn mistressteal about being racist. That she chose to interpret this as "he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree" confirms (to my satisfaction) that she is a troll with no genuine desire for discussion, and I've taken the decision to enforce a ban.

[Quiff Boy]

(Genuine curiosity) The administrator? Who's that then? When?

QB did warn mistressteal about being racist. That she chose to interpret this as "he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree" confirms (to my satisfaction) that she is a troll with no genuine desire for discussion, and I've taken the decision to enforce a ban.

fair enough. thanks mark.

[markfiend]

As far as I can tell, any discussion of the concept of race is complicated by the fact that anthropologists think race exists and is a meaningful concept while scientists think it does not. This is further complicated by the fact that of course they use the word to mean very different things. Still, I don't find this too surprising - race informs culture and so on.

Biologically speaking, as far as I understand the issue, the reason "race" can't be well-defined for humans amounts to:
1: the aforementioned fact that Africans are more genetically diverse than everyone else put together
2: modern cladistic classification techniques only recognise as genuine taxonomic groups, a set of all descendents of one (group of) common ancestor(s).

It is possible (although not certain) that such groups can be constructed for "white" people, and a couple of other of the traditional "races", but the only group so defined that contains all African people also includes the whole of humanity.

As you say, there are cultural definitions of "race" but they don't necessarily match up with biological reality.

[EvilBastard]

I would love to expand my answer but I have been informed by the administrator that he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree as it is his website and he pays for it – so there! Apparently some of my replies have been a little too “bitchy� and has upset some bleeding heart liberal sensibilities (pass the tissues around) and if I continue I will be banned.

If this were truly the case then most of us would find ourselves exiled to the outer darkness.

[emilystrange]

@ marky.

[GC]

I can't believe that mistressteal has been barred for those comments and itnaklipse can spout anti semitic rubbish to his hearts content...

[Big Si]

I can't believe that mistressteal has been barred for those comments and itnaklipse can spout anti semitic rubbish to his hearts content...

He's aware he's on a final warning, she completely ignored hers

[Silver_Owl]

I can't believe that mistressteal has been barred for those comments and itnaklipse can spout anti semitic rubbish to his hearts content...

He's aware he's on a final warning, she completely ignored hers

Indeed

And Marks actions have my full support FWIW.

[boudicca]

Just poked my head round the door here, I knew I was instinctively avoiding this thread with good reason.

[Syberberg]

(Genuine curiosity) The administrator? Who's that then? When?

QB did warn mistressteal about being racist. That she chose to interpret this as "he will not allow any comment from me that he does not agree" confirms (to my satisfaction) that she is a troll with no genuine desire for discussion, and I've taken the decision to enforce a ban.

Fair enuff mark, I missed your reply to her accusation as I was wording my question to her. I was debating whether or not to put a on the end of the "The administrator? Who's that then?" bit.

Aaaah well, never mind. No great loss.

[DeWinter]

fiendy It might help if the "they're stealing our jobs" meme was addressed properly with a few home truths about certain sections of the white working (benefit?) class given more air time.

A few weeks before Griffin appeared, the panellists on QT were Digby Jones of the CBI and Heseltine, former bridesmaid but never the bride of the Tory party. Both came up with the " migrants do the jobs British workers won't do" line. Take a look at those jobs they discuss. Hard work, long hours, on unprotected, zero-hour contracts, for the minimum wage. Very few British people except maybe students can actually afford to do work with such irregular hours and no guaranteed wage. Of course, it was once possible to withdraw your labour untill circumstances changed, but now you can be replaced at the drop of a hat by people eager to earn what can't keep you. Maybe the white working class don't see why they should accept being exploited and have some vague remnants of their self-respect. I see no reason why they should compete in a race to the bottom with foreign workers in their own country.

One thing that constantly needs to be addressed is the lack of understanding within certain areas of the UK population as to exactly what a fascist is and how that relates, directly, to the BNP. They (the BNP) need to be constantly exposed for what they are. Unfortunately, the Question Time episode, didn't manage well enough, but did the best it could in the short time available. Personally, I wanted it to go on for longer as Nick Griffin was starting to show severe signs of being about to crack under the pressure and not being able to understand why his attitudes and ideas were meeting with such uniform hostility. His paranoia showed clearly with the comment about liberal media conspiracy and "lynch mob" and cries of it all being a "set up" (paranoid sentiments echoed by his supporters as it can't possibly be that reasonable people find the policies of the BNP utterly unpalatable).

But it WAS a set-up. The whole format of the show changed, the hand-picked audience told to ask deliberately provocative questions, the biased chairperson. No-one, anywhere in Britain is claiming it was anything other than a bear-pit designed to pressure Griffin. His supporters are livid, and even some people like myself disliked what they saw on principle, never mind it being counter-productive due to the sympathy it has given him.

It would've been nice to see Nick Griffin pressured into stating categorically, on recorded television, exactly what he meant by "indigenous British people".

Their website says it pretty clearly. Roughly, the Anglo-Celts with a few bits of Scandinavian in the middle. There's as much an indigenous Brit as their is an indigenous Indian, Pole, American or Australian or anyone else. We've all shifted about a bit.
If you want to say "Race is load of fuss about nothing, we're all British", then that is fine with me, and I won't argue. But if you want to say "This group, and this group have a distinct racial identity but YOU do not" then you're just asking for trouble.

[GC]

I can't believe that mistressteal has been barred for those comments and itnaklipse can spout anti semitic rubbish to his hearts content...

He's aware he's on a final warning, she completely ignored hers

Indeed

And Marks actions have my full support FWIW.

I love the red ink and a dominering Rob staring at me

[Silver_Owl]

He's aware he's on a final warning, she completely ignored hers

Indeed

And Marks actions have my full support FWIW.

I love the red ink and a dominering Rob staring at me

He can be very forceful when he puts his mind to it.

[moses]

"indigenous British people"

i think he said something about those that "evolved" here after the ice age

amazingly he must be able to trace his own lineage back that far because let's face it, a great many people here are descended from the celts or the romans (who were truly an integrated "race") aren't they?

I have always assumed that the 'English' are mostly of Germanic decent, arising from the Angles & Saxons. The only remnants of the 'Britons' being found in Wales where The Saxons drove them to. The south has belonged to the French during various times.

[markfiend]

Of course, it was once possible to withdraw your labour untill circumstances changed, but now you can be replaced at the drop of a hat by people eager to earn what can't keep you. Maybe the white working class don't see why they should accept being exploited and have some vague remnants of their self-respect. I see no reason why they should compete in a race to the bottom with foreign workers in their own country.

So why are they blaming the workers replacing them? Oughtn't they blame the capitalist ba$tards who've engineered the state of affairs so that they can (pretty much) replace anyone at will?

[the_inescapable_truth]

I guess it's just easier to blame the immigrants.

Something I've considered before is that by 'supporting' immigration I am, for all intents and purposes, justifying what is essentially the continued creation of an underclass. Sort of.

[DeWinter]

So why are they blaming the workers replacing them? Oughtn't they blame the capitalist ba$tards who've engineered the state of affairs so that they can (pretty much) replace anyone at will?

Yes, they certainly should. But when did you read the last damning critique of capitalism in a newspaper? And how many would be able to follow it anyway?

[Big Si]

Those last 3 posts seem to remind me of this