Heartland

Edited out. This does not belong here.

Dark wrote:What if there's a relationship between a 12-year-old (male or female) and a 25-year-old (again, male OR female) in which they have discussed sex openly, are using protection, and are genuinely in love?

It's easy to jump to the conclusion that the parties are a young "innocent" girl who has been tricked into believing there's love and a man who just wants a f**k with a young girl, not caring about her. Whether this was the case with Gary Glitter or not, you can't say that the same definition applies to all underage/adult relationships.

Again, I get you impression you think children are just younger than adults, and that apart from that they have the same perception and understanding of their self and the world. I'm no expert in that matter, but from what I've been told on the subject, it is not so. The notion of "genuine love" itself is not one that is so easy to explain nor to understand, however sincere a person might feel about it.

Edited out because I'm dense.

What are you trying to get across?

In 99% of all cases it is not, let-me-say-it-again: NOT mutual consent when a 10 year old gets f**ked by an older person. Are you people for abolishing that paragraph because of this 1% where a premature child is actually sexually interested in an elderly?? WTF?

Dark wrote:or that they would refuse to do anything sexual until the child gets a better understanding of sex and sexuality.

Yeah that is exactly what they do: Wait until the kid gets older and is ready for a grown up relationship. Jesus are you naive. If a child gets a better understanding of sexuality then because it is entering puberty which makes it immediately uninteresting for a paedophile.

canon docre wrote:What are you trying to get across?

In 99% of all cases it is not, let-me-say-it-again: NOT mutual consent when a 10 year old gets f**ked by an older person. Are you people for abolishing that paragraph because of this 1% where a premature child is actually sexually interested in an elderly?? WTF?

Dark wrote:or that they would refuse to do anything sexual until the child gets a better understanding of sex and sexuality.

Yeah that is exactly what they do: Wait until the kid gets older and is ready for a grown up relationship. Jesus are you naive. If a child gets a better understanding of sexuality then because it is entering puberty which makes it immediately uninteresting for a paedophile.

I so agree and I must add that especially in that matter consent is not the absence of refusal. That's the excuse a lot of rapists use : "She didn't resist." Go figure, most of the time the victim is far too terrified or confused to even resist. But I agree that's slightly different.
Consent is informed approval, which implies, sorry for repeating myself, complete understanding of the situation at hand.

Also and even if that makes me look like an old fool (well, someone has to), being a teen isn't enough to give you knowledge of teenager behaviour. Only experts, even if you may get the impression that what they say is rubbish and irrelevant, can claim general understanding of teen behaviour. And again, I'm not of them either. Just like being older doesn't mean you don't know what it feels like to be a teen anymore.

Dark wrote: You'll note that I put that if the hypothetical "couple" would have discussed sex. It doesn't matter if a person's 16 or 12, they can still be taught about sex. Remember, in that situation, the older party is looking for more than just sex in their relationship, and it's fairly safe to assume that she/he would have the younger party's interests at heart, and not do anything that would be "unsafe" or that the younger party would not want to do. It's also possible that they do not want sex in that relationship, are they still the "monster" that they are described as?

One last thing before I go shut the f**k up : you don't need to be a monster to break the law.

I'm just trying to add a different angle.

Though obviously I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, so I'll go f**k off elsewhere.

If you'd kindly delete my posts from yours, I'd much appreciate it.

C'mon this is a discussion

Nothing wrong with adding different angles - in fact, much appreciated - but then accept other people's opinions about it too

Obviousman wrote:C'mon this is a discussion

Nothing wrong with adding different angles - in fact, much appreciated - but then accept other people's opinions about it too

Aye, well said.

Obviousman wrote:C'mon this is a discussion

Nothing wrong with adding different angles - in fact, much appreciated - but then accept other people's opinions about it too

Well said!!!

No offence meant to anyone...

I am a coach of a female soccer team. The age differs from 14 to 28.
During my teenage years it was pretty common to lose virginity around 16 to 18. The younger girls in my team all had sex at the age of around 12. I find this hard to believe but apperently it happens and they speek freely about it. Apperently it does not affect their lives.

So when is a person sexualy mature? Well I do not know and it differs from person to person. In what circumstances did they grow up etc...
The girls I'm talking about all did it with guys of the same age or age group and not with persons who could be their midlife crisised fathers.
If mr. Glitter is guilty I hope he gets punished for this.

I know 2 girls who where sexualy abused by a grown up at the age of around 10. They are around 28 years old now and it affects their lifes big time. It's sad....

Ozpat wrote: I am a coach of a female soccer team.

what?
Great job, oz.
They lost their virginity with males?? But arent they mostly lesbian? At least the German National Team is ....

3 lesbians, 2 bi-sexual and 10 straight.

Indeed it happens a lot in Dutch female soccer as well. When I started coacing this team 3 years ago, there was only one lesbian...

Funny thing is that the straight girls, except one, won't allow me to walk into the dressing room while they are taking a shower, but they have no problems with the lesbians watching them all the time...

Ozpat wrote:The younger girls in my team all had sex at the age of around 12. I find this hard to believe but apperently it happens and they speek freely about it. Apperently it does not affect their lives.

Not affecting their lives yet. Maybe not now or in ten years or in twenty years but I believe it to have affects. And not good ones at that.

Ozpat wrote:I know 2 girls who where sexualy abused by a grown up at the age of around 10. They are around 28 years old now and it affects their lifes big time. It's sad....

Indeed sad and judging around the years of your friends, I have many who were sexually abused too, many do have a darker side and of course it affects them, it's a process and a soul search and a hate to a certain degree. Abuse can be so underestimated until being a victim.

Ozpat wrote: Funny thing is that the straight girls, except one, won't allow me to walk into the dressing room while they are taking a shower, but they have no problems with the lesbians watching them all the time...

Now when you say it, I've slept with my lesbian friend in one bed too without any thoughts. I wouldnt necessarily do the same with one of you hairy things.

canon docre wrote:

Ozpat wrote: Funny thing is that the straight girls, except one, won't allow me to walk into the dressing room while they are taking a shower, but they have no problems with the lesbians watching them all the time...

Now when you say it, I've slept with my lesbian friend in one bed too without any thoughts. I wouldnt necessarily do the same with one of you hairy things.

Some of us are less hairy than others

Big Si wrote:

canon docre wrote:

Ozpat wrote: Funny thing is that the straight girls, except one, won't allow me to walk into the dressing room while they are taking a shower, but they have no problems with the lesbians watching them all the time...

Now when you say it, I've slept with my lesbian friend in one bed too without any thoughts. I wouldnt necessarily do the same with one of you hairy things.

Some of us are less hairy than others

Yeah going bald....

Big Si wrote:

canon docre wrote:

Ozpat wrote: Funny thing is that the straight girls, except one, won't allow me to walk into the dressing room while they are taking a shower, but they have no problems with the lesbians watching them all the time...

Now when you say it, I've slept with my lesbian friend in one bed too without any thoughts. I wouldnt necessarily do the same with one of you hairy things.

Some of us are less hairy than others

Despite my current avatar which would theoretically be the only exception I generally go for the less hairy ones.

I love how honestly stated opinions spiral out of control. 2x4s, splinters and first stones come to mind. And not hurled in Korin's direction either. This wasn't a discussion of consent. I flatly stated that were equal reasoned consent present, then no argument can be made purely based on the number of years since the parties concerned popped out of the oven. Age was the only stated variable, nothing else. It's entirely possible for "adult" conditions to occur in a child. With the right combination of genius and precocious puberty, you could do it in a 4 year old. But nobody was discussing 4 year olds. "X wouldn't happen" isn't a refutal of "Y holds, given X", it's a sideways move. It's completely frustrating when a question of "What if it was categorically unabusive" is met by answers referring to the situation as abusive

And anyone who uses four letter attacks in debate can fúck off, as far as I'm concerned

MadameButterfly wrote:

Ozpat wrote:The younger girls in my team all had sex at the age of around 12. I find this hard to believe but apperently it happens and they speek freely about it. Apperently it does not affect their lives.

Not affecting their lives yet. Maybe not now or in ten years or in twenty years but I believe it to have affects. And not good ones at that.

Ozpat wrote:I know 2 girls who where sexualy abused by a grown up at the age of around 10. They are around 28 years old now and it affects their lifes big time. It's sad....

Indeed sad and judging around the years of your friends, I have many who were sexually abused too, many do have a darker side and of course it affects them, it's a process and a soul search and a hate to a certain degree. Abuse can be so underestimated until being a victim.

Yes Debs they do have a darker side. A disorder they hardly talk about and hardly admit and is hard to recognize besides for the person they have got a relationship with at the time, which always is just for a while.

As for the younger girls of my team; it's different. I see it as experimenting with their boyfriend. They were not abused and it was their free will!
I also think that it's too young but the guys they had sex with where the same age. I cannot see their far future but I don't think this will have a bad influence. Like almost everyone they will meet several boys and some of them will be bastards. Just a few persons meet the love of their life at a young age. I think these relationships will affect their lives more.
Broken hearts, abuse(?), finding out they are not straight etc...

Motz wrote: It's entirely possible for "adult" conditions to occur in a child.

I'm not having a go here, just adding my opinion but yes and no. When I was a teenager I thought I was being incredibly grown up about certain things (about issues to do with sex and other things as well) but only now that I am older I think back and realise that even though I thought I was being all grown up about something I was still actually acting fairly childishly. I don't want to sound patronising in any way but only now that I have grown up do I realise these things and I would have done things differently (not just because of hindsight).

I know you're not having a go. You're probably the last person on the thread that my post was aimed at. I do appreciate where you're coming from and don't doubt that, in 90% of cases, children probably can't handle such matters competently. What I don't appreciate is the majority knee-jerk "he's an adult, she's a minor, it's wrong" thing that the western world seems to have going. Ok, abuse probably outnumbers loving relationships in such scenarios, but to state categorically that someone above age x having sex with someone below age y is wrong is extremely damaging to the minority in loving relationships. How a society which can glorify someone for killing in defence of others can refuse to accept that their may be strong and considered mutual love between two parties because of an arbitrary legally imposed point of majority is beyond me.

In short, feel free to tar and feather child abusers.

But only AFTER you know for certain that it was abuse.

Ozpat wrote:3 lesbians, 2 bi-sexual and 10 straight.

which brings up another ? - what the hell is straight?

Brideoffrankenstein wrote:

Motz wrote: It's entirely possible for "adult" conditions to occur in a child.

I'm not having a go here, just adding my opinion but yes and no. When I was a teenager I thought I was being incredibly grown up about certain things (about issues to do with sex and other things as well) but only now that I am older I think back and realise that even though I thought I was being all grown up about something I was still actually acting fairly childishly. I don't want to sound patronising in any way but only now that I have grown up do I realise these things and I would have done things differently (not just because of hindsight).

I think this is something a lot of people experience. It's part of growing older and thinking back....
I had grown up at the age of 18...and then again at the age of 21....the age of 28 etc....Not the sex thingy but "the other things as well" part.

Even now I realise that last year I have made a mistake which influences my life these days. But at the time it wasn't a mistake and there were no immediate solutions.
Today (or tomorrow) I have to make another decision which is pretty hard and will have a major influence....

What I mean is that at the time you made these decisions they kind of felt right didn't they?

Ozpat wrote: What I mean is that at the time you made these decisions they kind of felt right didn't they?

Yes I suppose they did but I thought I was being grown up about it all when I actually wasn't

Brideoffrankenstein wrote:

Ozpat wrote: What I mean is that at the time you made these decisions they kind of felt right didn't they?

Yes I suppose they did but I thought I was being grown up about it all when I actually wasn't

Okay, see your point but when is a person a grown up. After puberty somewhere for sure I guess but when one is an adult doesn't automatically mean that one has grown up. It's an experience thing IMO.

Anyway...the Glitter story doesn't make me happy and right at this moment, while discussing it, it's happening to kids of all
ages. That makes me feel sad....

Goodnight to all HL-ers....