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Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 02:43
by weebleswobble
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 02:51
by nick the stripper
I, personally, am an atheist. I realise that there is no evidence against the existence of a god and no evidence for the existence of a god, because god is non-falsifiable. I am aware of the possibility of a god, but I believe it is slim. Also, if there is a god, it is my belief that it is impossible to know anything about that god and we might as well go along as though it doesn’t exist, because it’s pretty evident that all religions are manmade. I wouldn’t call myself an extremist though, I do look at things from both sides… anyways, I have no idea why I am ranting about my beliefs, it’s 3 in the morning.
May I ask you why you have attempted to turn this into a thread about ‘extremist atheism’?
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 03:30
by DarkAngel
It was just........
Food for thought!
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 03:32
by weebleswobble
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 04:47
by boudicca
markfiend wrote:Well partly. I know the book you mean, by Freke and Gandy as I recall, but Earl Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle is far more scholarly. He hasn't got a neo-gnostic agenda for one thing.
Thanks for that Mark - that book looks quite interesting. And yes, there did appear to be a bit of a neo-gnostic slant to the writing in "The Jesus Mysteries", which is fair enough in itself, but not so good if you're unfamiliar with the topic. And it's certainly not pitched at scholars, but I found it a useful introduction to the subject nonetheless. It did strike me as being a little sensational, but as long as you approach it with your critical faculties switched firmly to "ON" it's worth a look.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 10:02
by markfiend
Well, as I am an atheist, lacking belief in god(s), I'll have a crack at
DarkAngel's article. Firstly, I struggle to see how one can be an "atheist extremist"; what, are there some people who, rather than
lacking in belief, are
extremely lacking in belief? But anyway.
From
DarkAngel's linky:
The whackjob is a special sort of atheist, ... he will ignore any and all reason or evidence that refutes his claims.
I am unaware that any atheist is making a claim other than "I do not believe in god(s)". If anyone has any evidence
for the existence of god(s), then bring it on. I've been looking for a
long time and have found none yet.
Outrageous claim number 1: Atheism is based on evidence and reason and is philosophically provable or proven. Atheism is a matter of thought not belief. In other words, atheism is true; religion is false.
OK, set up that
straw man so you can knock it down.
Proof is for mathematics and for alcohol. Of course there's no "proof" of the non-existence of god(s). For that matter, there's no proof of the non-existence of a small tea-cup in orbit at the Mars-Solar 4th Lagrange point, but that's no reason to take such a claim seriously.
Outrageous claim number 2: Since the natural is all that we have or can scientifically observe and/or measure, it is all that exists.
What does this even mean? If there is something called the "supernatural" that interacts in any way with the physical universe, there should be measurable results of this interaction.
Say I propose that there is a dragon in my living room, then there are certain effects I should observe: burnt carpets, a big green scaly thing blocking the view to my TV. Sure, to excuse the lack of these effects I can say that it's invisible, and that it's possible to walk through it, and that its fire has no physical effects. But in what way is an invisible, incorporeal dragon that breathes ineffective fire different to no dragon at all? Occam's razor allows us to rule out the dragon.
Outrageous claim number 3: All religion is oppressive.
Another straw man. I have not seen this argument made by any atheist. I would argue that religion
tends to be oppressive, but this is not the same thing. Anyway, let's deal with one of the points further down:
Study the abolitionist movement or the civil rights movement and you will be hard pressed not to encounter the role of religion in these struggles for liberation.
...on both sides. The Confederacy had pastors arguing in favour of slavery based on biblical precepts.
Outrageous claim number 4: The eradication of religion in favor of secularism will bring about utopia.
Marxists and anarchists, specifically, hold that the total eradication of religion is an essential but not sufficient step in the creation of an atheist utopia. In some interpretations of these systems of thought, false though they may be, the eradication of religion is thought to be sufficient to create utopia.
Whee, these straw men keep coming. I would suggest that a world without religion might be a better place than it is currently, but I don't think it would be a Utopia.
Outrageous claim number 5: All religious people want to force you or convince you or coerce you to believe as they do.
Straw man again. No atheist believes this.
This article is ridiculous. Set up the straw men just to knock them down. I don't know what problem the author has with atheism, but this isn't the logical demolition she hopes.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 14:52
by DarkAngel
I thought that article might interest you Mark. But, I still say extremism can absolutely be part of atheism. Yes, atheism is a lack of belief in God and it ia also a belief in ______________ (you can fill in the blank). Any beliief can be taken to an extreme and used as an excuse to kill or overpower. Atheist extremists may constantly try to convince (or convert) others to their way of thinking. An extremist may believe he/she is superior to others because of his/her belief system.
Arrogance seems to be a common thread amongst extremists, wouldn't you agree?
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 15:22
by markfiend
DarkAngel wrote:Yes, atheism is a lack of belief in God and it ia also a belief in ______________ (you can fill in the blank).
Bzzzzt. Wrong answer caller. Atheism is a lack of belief in god or gods. End of story.
Some atheists may go further and make the positive claim that no gods exist, which isn't amenable to
proof. But then again you can't
prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't the lord and creator of the universe either. *shrug*
Personally, I remain open to the possibility that I may be proved wrong, but I've yet to see any evidence that even
suggests to me that there's a god, never mind
demonstrates that there is. And I keep on talking to people (and looking at the world, and reading books) trying to find this evidence, but I've never seen anything that amounts to much more than wishful thinking. And indeed all the evidence I've seen leads me to the conclusions that a) gods don't exist and b) most talk about gods is nonsense.
I don't intend any offence to religious people, but to me, a belief in god is genuinely mystifying.
DarkAngel wrote:Any beliief can be taken to an extreme and used as an excuse to kill or overpower.
Well, yes. But atheism (generally) isn't a belief, but a lack of one. *shrug*
DarkAngel wrote: Atheist extremists may constantly try to convince (or convert) others to their way of thinking. An extremist may believe he/she is superior to others because of his/her belief system.
I hope that's not how I come across!
I just don't really understand how people form beliefs that seem to me to be utterly unjustified by the facts. I understand that it might give someone a warm fuzzy feeling to think that there's an invisible sky-daddy looking out for them, who is going to give them somewhere nice to live after they're dead, but personally, I'd rather live without (what I think are) illusory comforts.
And I must say, I've never really seen anyone trying to convert other to atheism. You don't get groups of atheists knocking on people's doors saying "let me tell you about the lack of God in my life"...
What I
do see is that atheists are repeatedly the
targets of proselytism from the religious, and many of us have got into the habit of pre-emptive explanations of why we don't believe, even when, really, it's up to the preachers to explain why we should.
Furthermore, on other forums (not this one) I've seen atheists faced with accusations from some religious people: "Atheists, in their hearts,
know there's a God, they just deny Him so that they can carry on with their sinful lives." I'll leave the reason that atheists tend to find such accusations insulting as an excercise for the class...
DarkAngel wrote:Arrogance seems to be a common thread amongst extremists, wouldn't you agree?
Maybe. But I see a lot more arrogance from the believers' side (not on this forum, I hasten to add) than from the unbelievers.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 15:34
by markfiend
Michael Shermer in [i]Why Darwin Matters[/i] wrote: What science tells us is that we are but one among hundreds of millions of species that evolved over the course of three and a half billion years on one tiny planet among many orbiting an ordinary star, itself one of possibly billions of solar systems in an ordinary galaxy that contains hundreds of billions of stars, itself located in a cluster of galaxies not so different from millions of other galaxy clusters, themselves whirling away from one another in an expanding cosmic bubble universe that very possibly is only one among a near infinite number of bubble universes. Is it really possible that this entire cosmological multiverse was designed and exists for one tiny subgroup of a single species on one planet in a lone galaxy in that solitary bubble universe? It seems unlikely.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 16:00
by DarkAngel
How about this, atheists say there is no God therefore they believe what they say is true, therefore their non or un belief is also a belief? Or, you could just look at your statement that you believe a society without religion would be a better one. That belief alone can be someone's motivation to be an extremist. But, it goes even deeper than just that.
I say that anyone can take their belief, or non-belief for that matter, and be oppressive. I propose that it is human nature to be self-serving or even arrogant, and extremism is proof that my statment is true. Extremists of all kinds put themselves above others scapegoating/blaming their behavior and thinking on their belief or non-belief claiming their belief/non-belief justifies their extremist behavior and/or thinking. It is human self-centeredness which fuels extremism which is why there can be Atheist Extremists too.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 16:03
by markfiend
It seems to me that you're trying to redefine the word belief here.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 17:02
by Planet Dave
d00mw0lf wrote:Planet Dave wrote:God, Jesus, Allah, David Icke, it's all a bit of a fcuking worry really, isn't it?
That's where
The Flying Spaghetti Monster comes into it...
Go forth and be touched by his noodly appendage - you know it makes sense!
There's far too much religion and nowhere near enough noodly appendage in this world.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 17:30
by eotunun
See you
at Odins´!
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 17:30
by Obviousman
Is that a glass of milk in the middle?
Yikes!
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 17:32
by eotunun
Obviousman wrote:Is that a glass of milk in the middle?
Yikes!
Nah, that´s Boudiccas Bailey..
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 17:37
by Obviousman
Good! I'd rather not see any of those non-alcoholic blasphemies around here
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 20:53
by boudicca
eotunun wrote:Obviousman wrote:Is that a glass of milk in the middle?
Yikes!
Nah, that´s Boudiccas Bailey..
A nice bloody Mary wouldn't go amiss, either...
Not to be consumed in quick succession though.
Eeuurrrgghhh! 
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 21:05
by wild bill buttock
I just thought I'd like to be the first to say that
Jesus built my hotrod.
Oh and for your delight
http://jesusoftheweek.com
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 22:24
by MadameButterfly
Christ on a bike!
Was jesus within these walls? was he sexy and is he gay?
He can walk on water I believe but can he surf?
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 22:39
by Dark
Jesus? A gay surfer?
All of a sudden, that particular religion seems more interesting.
Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 22:43
by MadameButterfly
Dark wrote:Jesus? A sexy gay surfer?
All of a sudden, that particular religion seems more interesting.
Yeah that comes and goes with the waves. Problem solved.
Posted: 23 Sep 2006, 03:24
by eotunun
Welcome to the middle of the film.
We have a little riddle for you here:
What good is all the effort?
Dark wrote:Jesus? A sexy gay surfer?
The Turbosaviour?
Posted: 23 Sep 2006, 08:51
by Obviousman
boudicca wrote:A nice bloody Mary wouldn't go amiss, either...
Not to be consumed in quick succession though.
Eeuurrrgghhh!
Nor as last drink of the night. The after taste in the morning is bloody unbearable
Posted: 23 Sep 2006, 11:19
by Dark
A sexy gay surfer.. truly his words are to love thy neighbour and shoot the curl until you wipeout.
Amen.
Posted: 23 Sep 2006, 12:00
by DeWinter
I'm pretty sure Tacitus doesn't ever mention the name Jesus.
It refers to Christians being scapegoated by Nero for the fire that destroyed Rome, and just says "and their leader Christus was crucified", or words to that effect. The historian Suetonius doesn't even go as far as mentioning the Christians when discussing Nero, but it was a long time ago I read any of that.
Perhaps religeon still has such a strong hold because science hasn't yet conclusively answered many things. It may make a lot more sense to believe in the theory of evolution and the Big Bang, but both are still theories only, with no definitive proof.