Heartland

http://website.lineone.net/~garynaylor/visionint.htm

A truly wonderful site from a wonderful human being.

Ribbons is crap

Rafster wrote:

Syberberg wrote:

itnAklipse wrote:
And i never got the impression it was about a serial killer, or a girl who's a bit dim. And now that i've heard of those ideas, i'd discard them immediately.

So you discard what Andrew says about the meanings and imagery used in his own lyrics? Why??

And you follow it up with:

i don't know what it's about, either, but it does provoke thoughts, which to me suggests that it is not about any particular thing but an existentialist sort of mishmash of half-related abouts. Though i'm probably wrong about this and there probably is at least one way to read it conceptually.

No wonder he gets so frustrated with certain sections of the fanbase if they completely ignore him and thereby completely miss the point due to willfull ignorance.

does this actually make you angry?

Hmmm...not angry, no. It's more a mixture of irritated confusion and frustration when the writer, in this case Andrew, points out what the imagery is for the metaphor and then someone (doesn't matter who) goes: "Nah, that isn't right, but I have no idea what he's on about."

Makes me want to go, "He's just told you. Now why on earth are you dismissing it? Surely, as the writer of the lyrics, he knows what's going on in the lyrics, what the metaphor is and what it's a metaphor for."

Thinking about it, it's rather ironic that this should come up in a discussion about Ribbons, given what the underlaying meaning is.

http://website.lineone.net/~garynaylor/visionint.htm

...second bassist Tim Bricheno... ..."Desolation Boulevard"...

haha

ormfdmrush wrote:http://website.lineone.net/~garynaylor/visionint.htm

...second bassist Tim Bricheno... ..."Desolation Boulevard"...

haha

IZ.

Syberberg wrote:Hmmm...not angry, no. It's more a mixture of irritated confusion and frustration when the writer, in this case Andrew, points out what the imagery is for the metaphor and then someone (doesn't matter who) goes: "Nah, that isn't right, but I have no idea what he's on about."

Makes me want to go, "He's just told you. Now why on earth are you dismissing it? Surely, as the writer of the lyrics, he knows what's going on in the lyrics, what the metaphor is and what it's a metaphor for."

Thinking about it, it's rather ironic that this should come up in a discussion about Ribbons, given what the underlaying meaning is.

Well... kind of. There's a critical basis for saying that Andrew's intentions are only an interpretation, though: second-hand explanation from someone who really struggled with Barthes' "Death of the Author" will follow.

Andrew knows what the lyrics meant to him, at the time of writing, but he's not the only person involved in interpreting them. Once a text is produced and disseminated, that's it: the creator has relinquished control. Determining a meaning is now the responsibility of the audience - they'll base it on what the creator provides, if they've got any sense at all, but it's their call.

Going around and saying "no, no, you've got it all wrong" stunts the audience's ability to interpret by teaching them that only the Textual Authority can possibly be right, which does nobody any favours at all, and ironically enough actually fuels the kind of half-baked nodding-and-smiling empty-headedness Eldritch claims to find so despicable.

I don't swallow this theory entirely. Eldritch is a clever blighter and he's obviously put the songs together the way he has for a reason. I do believe in taking that reasoning, where it's available, into account. It's just that if I ever met him I'd like to be able to surprise him with a broader or even entirely original view of his work, even if he has gone on record as saying he doesn't believe in freedom of interpretation.

canon docre wrote:It's about being in a brothel on LSD.

As likely as not, you're probably right Jess. Sounds like just the kind of stuff that would race through your head if you were in the brothel next door whilst severely tripping your knackers off. Well spotted!

Can't beat Izzy's description of what makes the recorded version so damn groovy. Live, when it works at its best, Ribbons is a remorseless thundering incessant beast of a song. It can lose its way from time to time, but sit back with the dvd of Vienna 93 or Roskilde 98 and appreciate a thing of great beauty.

Easily the best thing off the excellent Vision Thing, it wouldn't be remotely out of place if it had turned up on the Temple Of Love 12" (the best piece of vinyl ever pressed - TM eastmidswhizzkid).

I thought it was some bloke watching the news and what you get is the one story of the serial killer - and it's not that the girl is dim its that geeky nerdy bloke is not very good at chat up. he gets rejected so turns to slicing up the girl(s)

Another news story is of some other local bloke in fa off land lost wife/ daughter/girlfriend in war (probably American Imperialist venture)

All this seen through the eyes of geezer watching the news - the two stories get mashed up and parallels drawn.

i think the brothel thing works..

"her lovers que up in the hallway.. i hear em scratching at the door"

just walk on in..

euhm.. realy sound like a 5-dollor-whore phrase

but it's such a good song! damn.; especially live these days...

Episkopos wrote:

Syberberg wrote:Hmmm...not angry, no. It's more a mixture of irritated confusion and frustration when the writer, in this case Andrew, points out what the imagery is for the metaphor and then someone (doesn't matter who) goes: "Nah, that isn't right, but I have no idea what he's on about."

Makes me want to go, "He's just told you. Now why on earth are you dismissing it? Surely, as the writer of the lyrics, he knows what's going on in the lyrics, what the metaphor is and what it's a metaphor for."

Thinking about it, it's rather ironic that this should come up in a discussion about Ribbons, given what the underlaying meaning is.

Well... kind of. There's a critical basis for saying that Andrew's intentions are only an interpretation, though: second-hand explanation from someone who really struggled with Barthes' "Death of the Author" will follow.

Andrew knows what the lyrics meant to him, at the time of writing, but he's not the only person involved in interpreting them. Once a text is produced and disseminated, that's it: the creator has relinquished control. Determining a meaning is now the responsibility of the audience - they'll base it on what the creator provides, if they've got any sense at all, but it's their call.

Going around and saying "no, no, you've got it all wrong" stunts the audience's ability to interpret by teaching them that only the Textual Authority can possibly be right, which does nobody any favours at all, and ironically enough actually fuels the kind of half-baked nodding-and-smiling empty-headedness Eldritch claims to find so despicable.

I don't swallow this theory entirely. Eldritch is a clever blighter and he's obviously put the songs together the way he has for a reason. I do believe in taking that reasoning, where it's available, into account. It's just that if I ever met him I'd like to be able to surprise him with a broader or even entirely original view of his work, even if he has gone on record as saying he doesn't believe in freedom of interpretation.

I've always been interested in the idea of interpretation, ever since studying Barthes (and someone else, I forget) during literary theory. However, Eldritch is a really odd one, because the massive amounts of reference beg the question of how exactly he's reading the text that we're getting pointed towards, and the meaning of the song can change wildly based on how the listener interprets say, t.s. eliot or whatnot.

However, I still think most of the songs are plain enough to get some idea as to what the meaning is, and the references he uses (while clever) are also usually pretty clear. I mean, he IS obtuse, but it seems to make the song easier to make any sense of. Compared to say, Sylvia Plath, for whom one needs a diary to really get what she's talking about (for example, she says "the black telephone's off at the root" which makes little sense unless you know that one of Ted Hughes lovers called, she picked up the phone, the woman tried to sound like a man, and she ripped it off the wall. Or whatever).

Or I could just be crazy.

oh, and i meant to bring in wittgenstein and talk about the internal grammar of the song and how it doesn't necessarily need some sort of basic foundational logic to make sense, but in retrospect I don't know what that really has to do with what we're talking about. hmmm.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

ormfdmrush wrote:http://website.lineone.net/~garynaylor/visionint.htm

...second bassist Tim Bricheno... ..."Desolation Boulevard"...

haha

IZ.

for no apparent reason it was always 'denotation bovelard' in our household (i think it was a pissed up mis-pronunciation that stuck)

James Blast wrote:A pish track off a Rock album (I do like VT but that and Summit Fast are shite IMO), no I don't like Ribbons.
Sorry Iz it just doesn't work for me.

shame on you... Something Fast is class

King of Byblos wrote:

James Blast wrote:A pish track off a Rock album (I do like VT but that and Summit Fast are shite IMO), no I don't like Ribbons.
Sorry Iz it just doesn't work for me.

shame on you... Something Fast is class

'tis true - the ominous bass and the wonderfully restrained guitar gradually leaking in.

Good stuff......

So, after the lyrics have been mulled over and VT has also been prodded, is there anybody that can fill me in on the main part of my original post ?

For stuff like the Floodland album there are previous versions, early demos and such like. Is there anything for Ribbons ? Any part-formed curiosities or abandoned ideas ?

Thanks in advance, as ever....

Carpathian Psychonaut wrote:For stuff like the Floodland album there are previous versions, early demos and such like. Is there anything for Ribbons ? Any part-formed curiosities or abandoned ideas ?

Nope. Nothing. Zip. Not even a rumour of anything demo-ish from the VT era (or error if you are Mr Blast!)

The only things that are rumoured to exist are some outtakes from the VT sessions which apparently sound very very like the released versions.

Ribbons probably started up as a Euro-pop ditty with Andrew playing the spoons and the ukele at the same time, whilst rapping the original Finnish lyrics in a yodelling frenzy.

Or it didn't. You decide

probably nothing (sadly).

Eldritch isn't very keen on getting new ideas at the moment, I think... and I'm sure that IF they existed, versions of Ribbons would be published on the internet sooner or later....

You are new, aren't you Nienna

Welcome!

Uncle James

I tried to tell her
about Marx and Engels, God and Angels
I don't really know what for
but she looked good in ribbons

I see this as protagonist having a little chuckle at himself for attempting to teach communism and theology to some prostitute he's just met and is only going to bang for a buck and then leave.

that sound's more like the ravings of a serial killer, to me

James Blast wrote:that sound's more like the ravings of a serial killer, to me

I think the crux of it (if these things can be picked apart in such minutiae) is whether the ribbons are material clothes, slashed skin or psychological distress. Even then it's only one part so the context may even change meanings as it progresses......

thank you for the english lit. lesson

James Blast wrote:thank you for the english lit. lesson

I was only thinking out loud. Sorry.

I'll let it pass, this time.

perhaps we are over interpolating?
http://tinyurl.com/34v54p?

(Tinyurl link instead of mad-long link inserted by markfiend)

King of Byblos wrote:perhaps we are over interpolating?
http://tinyurl.com/34v54p?

(Tinyurl link instead of mad-long link inserted by markfiend)

or maybe he meant Gibbons?