Heartland

No-one 'll produce OUR music in the near future, even told Daniel B. off at some point while giving me good advice, production-wise

I'm just too keen on keeping an eye on our own products...

IZ.

Keep your eyse on your baby, lol

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:No-one 'll produce OUR music in the near future, even told Daniel B. off at some point while giving me good advice, production-wise

I'm just too keen on keeping an eye on our own products...

IZ.

Every musician thinks he knows his (or her) music best. That's true to a certain level. The "music" and the "music production" are two different things. A good eye on music doesn't automatically mean a good ear for music production. An experienced producer can give you advice about things you didn't notice (and believe me, you don't notice everyting because your biased about your songs in every way). A "good" and most of all experienced producer can help you to get more out of your production than you think ...

Most bands don't invest in a producer because they "think" they can do it themselves. That's why most music productions (mostly from most bands without a label) sound highly unprofessional for different reasons.

paul wrote:

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:No-one 'll produce OUR music in the near future, even told Daniel B. off at some point while giving me good advice, production-wise

I'm just too keen on keeping an eye on our own products...

IZ.

Every musician thinks he knows his (or her) music best. That's true to a certain level. The "music" and the "music production" are two different things. A good eye on music doesn't automatically mean a good ear for music production. An experienced producer can give you advice about things you didn't notice (and believe me, you don't notice everyting because your biased about your songs in every way). A "good" and most of all experienced producer can help you to get more out of your production than you think ...

Most bands don't invest in a producer because they "think" they can do it themselves. That's why most music productions (mostly from most bands without a label) sound highly unprofessional for different reasons.

True about the biased musician thingie, but a producer is also 'just another person with his own views' and you have to co-operate with him in a way that you don't blindly follow all he has to say. Daniel B., for example gave me a lot of good tips, but other stuff he said just didn't cut it for me.

You have to keep a keen eye on your own product all the time, that's what I say. There's a lot of music that sounds crap due to a producer or a mastering engineer who 'knows best'. A lot of examples in my shelf here. And starting bands often get bossed around by these people and they think 'oh they're famous producers, what CAN go wrong eh?'

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:
True about the biased musician thingie, but a producer is also 'just another person with his own views' and you have to co-operate with him in a way that you don't blindly follow all he has to say. Daniel B., for example gave me a lot of good tips, but other stuff he said just didn't cut it for me.

You have to keep a keen eye on your own product all the time, that's what I say. There's a lot of music that sounds crap due to a producer or a mastering engineer who 'knows best'. A lot of examples in my shelf here. And starting bands often get bossed around by these people and they think 'oh they're famous producers, what CAN go wrong eh?'

IZ.

I meant a "good" producer, not a self-absorbed tw*t (like most of them )

Many bands that have just signed to a label, don't have a choice in who the producer is gonna be. The label decides (ofcourse), but that could mean getting the wrong man for the job.

Most bands don't invest in a producer because they "think" they can do it themselves. That's why most music productions (mostly from most bands without a label) sound highly unprofessional for different reasons.

Yep, every now and then I go to "music-demo" sites like ongekendtalent and Boomrr etc. to listen to demo's of bands. And given the fact that anybody should be able to create something that sounds good it's still mostly crap I hear. As if this whole technical revolution never happened!

PipoTheClown wrote:And given the fact that anybody should be able to create something that sounds good it's still mostly crap I hear. As if this whole technical revolution never happened!

You didn't actually believe for one second that all this computer software and digitalisation makes it just the work of a minute to produce an instant-perfect song?

To the contrary. The DIY-DAW (do-it-yerself digital audio workstation) has lowered the threshold for music recording indeed, on the other hand, it did NOT make the material easier to use or understand.

Music production is still a tedious and demanding job, where a pair of brains and a pair of ears are quintessential in the first place, valued far above the software on your PC or the hardware around you.

It's just that the accessability has increased dramatically (read: you can download Cubase SX4 for free if you know the correct sites). A 12-year-old can have a DIYDAW downloaded and installed in a couple of days. That does not make him a musician or a master engineer.

IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:

PipoTheClown wrote:And given the fact that anybody should be able to create something that sounds good it's still mostly crap I hear. As if this whole technical revolution never happened!

You didn't actually believe for one second that all this computer software and digitalisation makes it just the work of a minute to produce an instant-perfect song?

To the contrary. The DIY-DAW (do-it-yerself digital audio workstation) has lowered the threshold for music recording indeed, on the other hand, it did NOT make the material easier to use or understand.

Music production is still a tedious and demanding job, where a pair of brains and a pair of ears are quintessential in the first place, valued far above the software on your PC or the hardware around you.

It's just that the accessability has increased dramatically (read: you can download Cubase SX4 for free if you know the correct sites). A 12-year-old can have a DIYDAW downloaded and installed in a couple of days. That does not make him a musician or a master engineer.

IZ.

Agreed, hence the need for a producer/tehnician is still there!
allthough I don't need one of course, *ahum*

Hence the need of a good technician who has at least a basic notion of music and how it is made, eg knows a guitar from a bass plank when he accidentally steps on it. A very rare breed indeed

But when you have:
a) an enthousiastic band that knows how to play every line in their songs BEFORE they enter the studio, and are willing to take some criticism from someone who knows best what the machines can and cannot do (eg they can enhance that lovely guitar solo but they DON'T make you a good singer!)

and b) a technician as said above with at least some notion of music playing but not tooo much, and of course a good understanding of his hard/soft, but also about every music he pretends to be able to record...

--> you have a good thing going on and you don't need no steenkeeng producer.

IZ.

One thing I've never understood is the term "over produced". Exactly what does that mean?

The main problem I have with the way most music sounds these days comes from the mastering side, rather than the production (recording) side of things. There's far too much use of compression to get the songs to be as loud as they can be and this wipes out any dynamic range and makes the whole thing so much harder to listen to. I don't necessarily blame the mastering engineer for this, but rather the A&R men who tell him how they want it to sound...usually "Louder is better." Which in the studio is a Good Thing, coz you can hear the mix better and see what needs tweeking, but is a Bad Thing for long-term listening pleasure.

The early Orange Juice singles on Postcard have a quality and charm that was lost on the over produced album.

James Blast wrote:The early Orange Juice singles on Postcard have a quality and charm that was lost on the over produced album.

Unfortunately, that reference is completely lost on me James, not really having heard much by Orange Juice. Sorry...

So, let's try this; would you say Alice '93 is over produced compared to the original recording and, if so, what qualities/changes make it over produced?

Syberberg wrote:

James Blast wrote:The early Orange Juice singles on Postcard have a quality and charm that was lost on the over produced album.

Unfortunately, that reference is completely lost on me James, not really having heard much by Orange Juice. Sorry...

So, let's try this; would you say Alice '93 is over produced compared to the original recording and, if so, what qualities/changes make it over produced?

Difficult one. The 93 version sounds "better" in terms of sound quality. It sounds more professional. All the instruments sound bigger. Especially the bass and the drums. But it doesn't have the feel that the original had.
So maybe in my opinion, it's overproduced (imho)

But then again, I think that Body Electric '82 was way "under-produced"

PipoTheClown wrote:
Difficult one. The 93 version sounds "better" in terms of sound quality. It sounds more professional. All the instruments sound bigger. Especially the bass and the drums. But it doesn't have the feel that the original had.
So maybe in my opinion, it's overproduced (imho)

But then again, I think that Body Electric '82 was way "under-produced"

Sometimes "less" is "more". A bombastic production can kill a song for sure, especially when a song doesn't "ask" for it. A good producer sees if a song needs "more" or "less". It's easy to blow everything up, it's difficult to leave things away...

pippo and paul,

Cheers for that, now I get it. Too much clutter, like extra guitar bits and keyboard fills that don't really need to be there.

I think one of the things that causes that is a lack of restraint when it comes to utilising tracks. Just because you've got 64 tracks (or the silly levels now available thanks to DA recording), doesn't mean you have to use them.

What really amazes me are songs like "Hotel California", at one point there's 8 guitars in there and it was recorded on a 4-track and manages not to sound cluttered. Or as you would say, "over produced."

Cheers guys.

it does sound pish tho

Syberberg wrote: What really amazes me are songs like "Hotel California", at one point there's 8 guitars in there and it was recorded on a 4-track and manages not to sound cluttered. Or as you would say, "over produced."

That means they (probably) had a good producer

paul wrote:

Syberberg wrote: What really amazes me are songs like "Hotel California", at one point there's 8 guitars in there and it was recorded on a 4-track and manages not to sound cluttered. Or as you would say, "over produced."

That means they (probably) had a good producer

I'm sure that sweet 70's compression came in handy as well!

"Over-produced", to my mind, is when the studio and the producer take control of the recording and end up swamping out whatever was in the original songs. In the case of Alice, both versions are fine, as they do a good job of capturing how the band sounded at the respective times.

The Cult's Peace LP - now that's over-produced. Totally bogged down in studio FX, unnecessary extra instrumentation (if a song needs 8 guitars that's fine, if it doesn't, then adding 7 more might not be a good idea), with the life drained from it, and sounding nothing like how the band actually were.

This is totally different from the "studio-as-instrument" approach of Hannet, of course. And from the "bombast-for-the-sake-of-it" approach of Floodland.

I'd associate over-produced with expensive studios, massive recording budgets, and bands who have either lost their direction, are going through the motions, or just don't want to be recording at the time.

You don't have to look THAT far to find a heavily over-produced album



IZ.

Izzy HaveMercy wrote:You don't have to look THAT far to find a heavily over-produced album



IZ.

Agree. Floodland is even worse though (Jim Steinman is an artist in bombast, he even calls himself "Lord Of Excess", his profile sais: "too much is never enough"... need to say more? )