UK? What the hell? Seriously.

[darkparticle]

Yep. Agreed, that's a hellish place to be, the Caste system is already becoming contovertial within India.

Your point here is clouded by the nature of what we are told and born to experience, you insist that America offers you freedom, which in some sense it may give you, your freedom is something quite complex.

A 13 year old girl in India has less ownership on her time and being, until she is married....when her duties transfer to her own home and husband.

[nodubmanshouts]

Just to be clear, I don't say the USA is free<period>, but that it is freer than any other country - certainly any country I can think of, and that includes the UK (back on topic).

[EvilBastard]

Apparently the Met is down on one band in particular:

Interactive form from the Met's website

Check out the last section under "Promotion/Event Details"...

"Do you have other knowledge of the acts or crowds attending that would need special considerations to be made to limit crime and disorder (e.g. problems at previous venues, the make up of the patrons, whether they are local or are expected to travel from long distances to the event, etc.)?"

Got lots of darkies coming, do ya? Kids with long hair, piercings, dreadlocks? Any crusties or travelers expected? What about pooves? Have the bands ever made political statements that differ from those expressed by the government of the day? Have they ever played benefit gigs for questionable organizations (Greenpeace, CND, the RSPCA)? Are they local (we don't want any trouble here)? Are they foreigns? Oh, and we're keeping this information for 6 years, so don't even think about giving us any less than the complete truth, sonny, or you'll be down Stockwell tube station with SO19 so fast your head will spin.

Apparently the bit of the Met that deals with this is the Clubs & Vice Unit - nice to see that they view the two as pretty much the same thing...

[EvilBastard]

Just to be clear, I don't say the USA is free<period>, but that it is freer than any other country - certainly any country I can think of, and that includes the UK (back on topic).

It's an interesting point of view - what prompts you to think this? I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to hear your thoughts on what makes the US more free (if such a description is possible) than other places.

[weebleswobble]

Keep Posting----they are watching

[7anthea7]

You should all come here to the USA (except those of you who don't like to work - you can stay put).

If that's supposed to be humour, I suggest using an emoticon. If it isn't...I'll PM you what I suggest

We have more government interference than we used to, but we're still the most free country in the world.

Wrong. And before you jump to conclusions: I'm a citizen, I was born in the US, I'm not a member of a 'minority' group, and I know whereof I speak.

As for government interference: you can't really compare the US to the UK. States and municipalities have enormous power, so the level of interference is extremely variable. Although Seattle hasn't gone quite as draconian as what started this whole thread, it's still like another planet compared to, say, SF or LA.

We're just about to get a new president, who we have high hopes for

...and our economy's tanking bigtime; our social services, such as they are, are in a massive meltdown; and we're (openly) engaged in two losing wars. Obama's going to be seriously challenged just to maintain the status quo, never mind making any progress

But if you're afraid of all the things you read about America (guns, medical care, etc), try Western Canada. Its not as nice, but they sure have some pretty nice trees.

Western Canada is massively better than most of the US. I lived in California for a significant portion of my life, so I know very well how one can come to believe the whole country is rational and reasonable if you spend too much time there. I will, however, call your attention to the fact that even in that most prosperous of the states, marriage equality was voted down, and a major tax increase is being seriously considered as the only way to avoid serious infrastructure cuts. And I've also experienced the rest of the country - who, although Democratic backlash defeated them in this last election, still outnumber the rest of us. Try living in some of the rest of the country, and then tell me how great the US is.

[nodubmanshouts]

The US Constitution protects hugely important rights and freedoms; States and Local Governments can't contradict these freedoms (and if they try to, they can be shot down), so I'm not sure what you are talking about, 7anthea7.

You do not have to remind me about gay marriage, or other freedom issues. The USA is not perfect. But most other countries don't allow that freedom either.

Western Canada does sound pretty good -- too cold for me though -- but the lack of economic freedom and high taxation doesn't turn me on.

@EvilBastard: basically coz I hear about how other countries violate people's rights everyday, and 9 out of 10 times I think to myself "that could not happen here".

[stufarq]

No, it happens in Guantanamo Bay instead.

[7anthea7]

No, it happens in Guantanamo Bay instead.

Thank you. I was starting to lose my equanimity, so I'd thought it best just to take someone's sage advice and shut the f**k up...

[nodubmanshouts]

As I say, not perfect.

I do not doubt that one day some of what goes on at Guantanamo will be found illegal and unconstitutional in US law.

[nowayjose]

but we're still the most free country in the world.

You're brainwashed.

A country with more domestic spy agencies and "security" agencies than the entire Warsaw Pact combined isn't free.

A country where a plain old professor of history gets chucked to the ground and dragged away in handcuffs because he dared to cross the street at the wrong point isn't free.

A country which whitewashes its unemployment statistics by locking up in prison a significant part of its youth (and wastes the remainder in pointless wars) isn't free.

A country where more police than demonstrators show up at public protests isn't free.

A country with software patents isn't free.

Etc. pp.

Ok, it's still better than quite a lot countries, I agree, but since when did we lower our standards so far as to admit authoritarian police states as acceptable societies?

[nodubmanshouts]

A country with more domestic spy agencies and "security" agencies than the entire Warsaw Pact combined isn't free.

And where does this lil gem of a comparison come from?

A country where a plain old professor of history gets chucked to the ground and dragged away in handcuffs because he dared to cross the street at the wrong point isn't free.

That's funny, coz my brother was arrested, handcuffed and dragged away for crossing the street. Needless to say THAT didn't make news in the UK, because it goes on all the time. (Ask your favorite ex-hunt-sab)

A country which whitewashes its unemployment statistics by locking up in prison a significant part of its youth (and wastes the remainder in pointless wars) isn't free.

That's awesome. Putting away criminals is now whitewashing unemployment statstics? Last time I was unemployed in the UK, I remember being forced onto Income Support, so that I wouldn't show up on Unemployment statistics.

Should I personally remind the next senior citizen who gets mugged that their attacker is only being put away to hide unemployment figures, or would you like to do it?

A country where more police than demonstrators show up at public protests isn't free.

I'm afraid that's just not true; have you been on protests of both sides of the Atlantic? Coz I have.

A country with software patents isn't free.

Nope, and I have 2 software patents, with 4 more in the works - 5 if you include the new one I'll send off to Legal early next year.

Those who can; patent. Those who can't; bitch about how unfair it is.

Ok, it's still better than quite a lot countries, I agree,

good, then why post all the drivel above?

but since when did we lower our standards so far as to admit authoritarian police states as acceptable societies?

We didn't. I don't think the USA could be classed as an "authoritarian police state".


Next....

[stufarq]

A country where a plain old professor of history gets chucked to the ground and dragged away in handcuffs because he dared to cross the street at the wrong point isn't free.

That's funny, coz my brother was arrested, handcuffed and dragged away for crossing the street. Needless to say THAT didn't make news in the UK, because it goes on all the time. (Ask your favorite ex-hunt-sab)
[/quote]
Not sure how that makes it better but never mind.

This thread seems to be in danger of degenerating into "my dad's freer than yours", which doesn't seem that constructive to me. How about we all agree that, despite pretending to be the champions of freedom and democracy, both the UK and the US are, in reality, guilty throughout history and to this very day of gross human rights abuses and flagrant disregard of democracy when it suits the various governments of the moment. And, tragically, both are still arguably among the more free and democratic in the world. Although whether they make the top 10 may depend on your point of view.

[nodubmanshouts]

Not sure how that makes it better but never mind.

It doesn't. But this is great example of what I continually have to deal with on the internet - somebody picks out some isolated incident as a great example of how bad the USA is, when something just as bad - or worse - is happening in their home country. In this case, an isolated incident in the US happens EVERY SINGLE day in the UK.

Still, at least its an attemtped example, and much better than the flippant, anti-American comments made here without facts or basis - like dissing the "American Model" or some bollocks like that.

People seem to think the American government has the most evil, draconian intentions of any country in the UN. I just do not see that as being true, and will continue to respond to those who write baseless, reasonless, and even childish comments as long as I have the energy.

[sultan2075]

Here's part 2

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents?

Seriously. Is this a joke?

EDIT:
It brings this to mind: "They are at one, the lot of them, in the cry and the impatience of pity, in their deadly hatred of suffering generally, in their almost feminine inability to remain spectators, to let someone suffer. They are at one in their involuntary plunge into gloom and unmanly tenderness under whose spell Europe seems threatened by a new Buddhism. They are at one in their faith in the morality of shared pity, as if that were morality in itself, being the height, the attained height of man, the sole hope of the future, the consolation of present man, the great absolution from all former guilt. They are at one, the lot of them, in their faith in the community as the savior, in short, in the herd, in 'themselves'--"

Beyond Good and Evil, section 202

[darkparticle]

People seem to think the American government has the most evil, draconian intentions of any country in the UN.

I would question this idea, I don't think the American Government has the most evil or draconian intentions bit I fail to see eveidence of the best intentions or any intentions with much morale or philosophical foundation...saying the Geneva Code was 'vague and wishy-washy'...insisting they were looking to tighten the meaning when really they were creating doubts about their CRIMINAL acts. Has a new interpretation emerged...is there talk of Bush's easy-to-read convention guide?

If the American model is a system of sophistry then there is no moral substance.

The American state is bankrupt and if it wasn't for oil trading in dollars, you'd all be sunk in that debt. Saddam Hussein, 6 months before the raid into Iraq, chose to trade in Euro's...Let that be a lesson to anyone else, I think is the intention behind the action. It's certainly the only sense I can make of a 'WAR' that served no purpose (except illegal regime change).

You may know different?

Before you get righteous - USA sold chemical and Biological weapons to Iraq, to be 'tested' on the Kurds and the American Govt. didn't mind that. BioChem Attack on the USA from Iraq is impossible anyways and Hussein has no form in terrorism.

Hussein was working with the EU weapons inspectors - No nuke threat.

So you can clearly see, it's not that there is cynicism for the American Governments GeoPolitical plans, successive administrations have broken trust, failed to be convincing and been found in acts of corruption. They have done nothing to answer questions or allay the suspicions of common people, so it grows.

You must admit, that reporter gave Bush the shoeing he richly deserved

[nodubmanshouts]

1. The American state <sic> is not bankrupt. You have evidence?

2. USA sold weapons components to Iraq, yes. So did the UK. So did other countries. Does that make it ok? No. Does it make the USA worse than other countries? No. (FYI PlayStation 2 CPU would count as weapons components, just to see how widely that can be interpreted).

3. A country trades under trade embargo chooses to trade in Euros and that triggers the Iraq War? You're being serious? Did you see a shadowy figure on a grassy knoll too?

4. Hussein ALWAYS worked with weapons inspectors when use of force was threatened. How quickly people forget...

5. Last I head, the Geneva Convention was being applied to prisoners. Should at have been applied earlier? Yes.

6. No, I don't think throwing things at people is a good way to voice criticism, smilies or no.

[Quiff Boy]

You must admit, that reporter gave Bush the shoeing he richly deserved

i think its interesting that it was relegated to an "and finally..." moment on the 6 o'clock news.

can you imagine if someone had jumped up at a press conference with ANY previous US president and thrown something at him? it would be front page news...

it says something about the world's perception of bush.

[Big Si]

Well this guy's happy

[darkparticle]

when will you concede there's no free-er and such a limited sense of freedom we could easily call it anything, like democracy, nationalism, fascism...

Blow by blow
1. Check in with your Chinese paymasters, the bank-rollers for what you like, you like.

2. USA & UK are booth guilty, not in the small matter of passing some engineered parts to a brutal regime, they're guilty of engineering circumstances that allow them to test out BioChem weapons and treatments in human subjects. No question Saddam played his minor part in pulling the pin.
3.

A country trades under trade embargo chooses to trade in Euros and that triggers the Iraq War? You're being serious? Did you see a shadowy figure on a grassy knoll too?

I have to quote this as it's not quite right. Iraq was trading within the UN regulations of the oil for aid programme. They were just the first of many countries who would have been RICHER if they traded in Euro's (due to Currency exchange rate) you tell me why they don't? If the raid into Iraq was not to set an example where are the alternativews you haven't suggested?

4. Hussein ALWAYS worked with weapons inspectors when use of force was threatened. How quickly people forget... No, I'm clearly remembering it was part of his long term diplomatic game....US Admin. decided their long diplomacy was ending the game.
5. Last I head, the Geneva Convention was being applied to prisoners. Should at have been applied earlier? Yes. Does that make the Administration criminal...Yes Extraordinary renditions (kidnap) This is the sophistry I mentioned earlier

6. No, I don't think throwing things at people is a good way to voice criticism, smilies or no. ...I would, no hesitation, shoot him dead, so the man has patience and the beauty of a symbolic act is it doesn't even have to connect to make it's mark.

Do I condone violence, no but I believe there's a limit to tolerance and this guy was confronted with the face of oppression.

Remember you or I tolerate very little, we rarely practice tolerance. In global terms we're dripping in privilege but the cost is never felt by us. Even if I break my new toy I can buy it again.

I don't care that in the UK I can only say it's a police state, it's a shame but Politicians have sold the infrastructure, social purpose and responsibilty to add more consumer posibilities and two seats on the board. This condition will change but an Alcoholic isn't cured by calling whiskey pepsi


@ Quiff Boy And a little odd that the 2nd shoe was allowed to fly given the 4-5 seconds...or that Bush wasn't in a shield - which is highly unusual

[EvilBastard]

@ Quiff Boy And a little odd that the 2nd shoe was allowed to fly given the 4-5 seconds...or that Bush wasn't in a shield - which is highly unusual

But you've got to figure that at this point in his administration the Secret Service (question: if they're supposed to be secret, how come their number's in the book?) is probably figuring, "How much of a tw@ can we make him look without actually getting him killed?" 8 years of protecting his gawpy, grinning, "I can't even believe I'm the presidink," law-breaking, folksie-homily cracking, "now watch this drive" uttering, world-in-black-and-white cracker arse would be enough to make even the most square-jawed company man think about whether putting one between his eyes wouldn't be worth the resulting hassle. They're thinking, "Naah, it's a Reebok - not going to bother stopping this one. A Doc Marten might be more of a threat, but I'm not going to worry about it."

[nodubmanshouts]

darkparticle, I'm gonna ignore your last post because you were clearly drunk when you posted it.

(Although I must just be tempted to put "Check in with your Chinese paymasters, the bank-rollers for what you like, you like. ' on a T-Shirt if you don't mind)

Still, if you want to discuss the original subject (Freedom) as opposed to your diversion (the cost of freedom/ Iraq), I'll hear ya.

[darkparticle]

But in your dismissal of any points I raise you dismiss my entire point - you do not exist in some Splendid Isolation and my guess is that YOUR sense of Freedom is, in some way, relative to other people's experience.

If we discuss freedom is it freedom from, fear, hunger & starvation, violence. And if you are liberated from these concerns.

Or

freedom to choose, to not decide, to care or not, to work for a boss or your own good, to look back or forward.

I wouldn't deny that living in the USA you can be so far removed from the physical needs in life to intellectualise such things as freedom, the feeling of it and how it comes into being. I think I'm communicating with a conformist, certainly no apologist still you find value in the system being. Maybe I'm wrong but I think you are a child of time, born and bound in the conditions of an industrious life and industrial standards. You might be Generation X who grew into it. I don't accept the artless s**t in any way, there may be no depth to life but we can still find a deeper way of looking at it. This isn't all there is, but we make of it what we will. No I'm not an evangelist, or even religious, who knows I may have took too many trips, or [insert drug]. But think about this. If a Government persistently brings terrorist attacks and the spectre of terrorist to the public attention, are they guilty of terrorism?

Test the robustness of your theory how much can you swing your freedom in front of the law, are you free to negotiate the rush hour on your own terms all the time or just some?

Do you and your Country have the freedom to solve problems (maintining freedom) or a there unsolved problems, in your experience?

[nodubmanshouts]

From your PM, you seem like a nice guy, dp, but honestly your last couple of posts seem like the aimless ramblings of somebody high on something fun. I mean, seriously, what is the "freedom to solve problems ?".

The rest of your post is similar dribble. You're not inkaclipse (or whatever the name is) are you?

[sultan2075]

Fucking hell, guys.

Doesn't that seem like a little much?